Growth and fulfilment - Min Ong

00:00

I'd say in the two years I was at nate, my development as an individual was many times or exponentially faster than it would have been at a significantly larger company. Just through the virtue of the opportunities that would present themselves and also my personal growth would have tracked that growth trajectory of the business. In terms of how long each person can sustain that, I think it's very much down to the individual, but certainly I think a lot of that growth would very much tie with the success of the business as well.

00:54

When was the first time you spent a disproportionate amount of time reflecting on what you wanted to do?

01:04

I'll probably say that would have been in part way through my first job. So I started my career as a software engineer on the graduate program in a large investment bank. And so in terms of starting out, I was on a graduate program. So it's really intensive, really interesting, I was learning a lot. And it was also in the data space has a draw and it was super interesting to me. Over time, the work did shift from doing individual contributor work to starting to do more management. But at that point, I was starting to feel a bit unfulfilled in how much I was learning and how much I was growing as an individual contributor and as a manager, I think. At that point, I was at a point where I could see both sides and the pros and cons of both potential career paths, but there was also the pull of still learning more.

02:11

And so that's where I was reflecting about what I wanted to do next and that was the point when the big data hype was a growing hype and so I was drawn quite a bit to the adjacent area of data science and machine learning to the data work that I was doing at that point. And I really wanted to find out more, a lot around my intellectual curiosity I suppose, around how my data was being used in algorithms and machine learning to make decisions about me. And also I felt just as an individual I needed to also upskill myself in terms of my data literacy at that point, which I think is an important skill for everyone. So yeah, I'd say that was the part when I did a lot of reflection then. And then I decided to take a year out of working and go back full-time to do a Masters in data science.

03:09

As you reflected on that, it felt like almost two different worlds and two different parallels. If you are at somewhere like Deloitte, you are thinking a certain way and you are working towards a certain outcome, and what you went on to do at nate is very different and it almost feels like a different chapter. There's something different that you are optimizing for and the choices in some way between these two different worlds that have two different types of outcome and two different reasons why you're doing that. Does that ring true at all to your experience?

03:53

Well, I suppose yes and no, to an extent. Because while I did go to Deloitte after I had graduated with my Masters in data science, I was doing a data scientist machine learning engineering role in consulting there. And I think the unique part there was that beyond the time and materials work, there was also a lot of work that we were doing in starting to form a software as a service type business and business model within the consultancy. So that was when I was probably very exposed to that early stage startup mentality and that searching for that product market fit and validating business models. So that was very startup like and I would say that was then the thread that took me to nate towards a real early stage startup in the sense and also a more consumer focused product that could also utilize my skill set in data science and software engineering.

05:05

It's interesting that it almost goes down in steps. If you're at Morgan Stanley, then Deloitte, then nate, and each one almost feels like a different... Almost don't know how to phrase it. It's like you're going down the funnel a bit and it's getting more and more specific as you go.

05:28

I wouldn't have seen my career path as linear and certainly I'm not the kind of person to say I have a 10 plan and I know exactly where I want to be in 10 years. But definitely all the reflection points that I've taken have opened up more opportunities for me. And also there's definitely relations to what I've done before in some ways and while I might not have come back to it quite immediately, so for example, while at nate, while I started as a data scientist, I very quickly then started going back to it's more of a management role just because that was a gap I could see in the team and there was a lot more that I thought I could bring beyond being an individual contributor as a data scientist to help us move the business and the product forward in a more CTO role.

06:32

And how does that come about? Because that's quite a moment or a thing to recognize that on the one hand you are an individual contributor but you can see the opportunity ahead of you. Is it the type of thing that landed on your lap in a way or did you have to seek it out?

06:58

I suppose it's possibly a combination in that the opportunity or the potential of the opportunity has to exist in the first place and I would say I did actively put myself forward and raise it. And I would say that was definitely a challenging moment for myself to have the courage to put myself forward and see how that would be received and how that would change the dynamic. But I would say, at that point, also I had a lot of clarity around where I could see us going as a business and also where I could see what the steps that we needed to take to continue to develop the product and grow the team to develop the product. So it felt very natural in many ways.

07:59

Why was it challenging at the time?

08:03

Well, it's in terms of I've never been in such a position, so it's certainly a new position for me. And I'm also cognizant of how much I didn't know at that point or still don't know, to be honest. I'm always learning every day. And in terms of why that would be a challenge as well, that was also a point when effectively that would be a point when I would go from having peers to managing those peers as well. So that was also a challenging point, to put myself out there. And also as a woman in technology, there are fewer role models around and certainly within the startup space it can be quite noticeable, the gender split in those sort of roles.

09:04

That reminds me of a bit of a chicken and egg problem, that you could think that in order to have the courage to put yourself forward for that you would need some kind of experience having done it before but in order to have done it before, you need to have done it for the first time. And I think for so many people they find that chicken and egg really challenging and really difficult.

09:39

Yeah, so I wouldn't say it was an overnight change, but taking the route of starting to do the role before you're promoted, that ethos is how I approached it.

09:55

It's interesting that that relates to another way of thinking. When you are trying to explore what you are interested in, and often people can give very blase career advice like, "Go in this direction, or quit this, or try that," when actually what people really need to do is they just need to get out there and experiment with different things and try different things. It's almost like somehow we need to lower the barrier to entry to people trying things. And what you're saying there reminded me of that because it's almost as if what you were able to do is create a lower barrier to entry. Instead of saying, "I'm going to go and be the CTO and I'm just going to go and do this now." Instead you're able to say almost like, "Okay, what parts of that role can I do bits of now?" And almost like a science problem, breaking that larger thing down into it's smaller chunks.

11:01

Yeah. And that definitely resonates with me and also that's a great way of finding a product market fit as well.

11:09

Yeah, your person market fit.

11:14

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I suppose to an extent, very similar approach there. And also having that safe space to try that. And that's something that also is a big part of what I do want to foster in all the teams that I'm managing and building today, creating that psychologically safe environment for them to experiment, to try new things, to also seek those paths of perhaps if someone wanted a career change, what would be some of the things that they could do in a safe environment to try that out and see if it's something that they wish to put more time and effort into. So that's definitely a big part about how I think about coaching and providing for my teams as well.

12:17

Yeah, I think a safe space is so important and you're so right to mention it. And when we look at someone's career journey, sometimes it can look like the way to navigate your career well is to make as little mistakes as possible and to make a smaller number of decisions that are right. And reminds me of that... Is that Michael Jordan or something? Where there was a survey that some data was said that he scored the most three pointers in history. But what people also didn't realize is that he missed the most three pointers in history and actually it was just that he got himself in a position where he could shoot so many that meant that he got the most. And in some ways that safe space that you are able to create, almost what you're saying is if you can break down these big career moves that you think are big into these smaller responsibilities that you could try and proactively pick up, then actually in some ways what you're not doing is making less mistakes, you are just able to have a safe space where you can make lots of them, which then mean that you can be informed to make the right ones or something like that.

13:43

Yeah. And yeah, that definitely resonates a lot with me and it's also something that I try to encourage in the team.

13:54

How did you know when your time was up at nate?

13:58

Oh, that's an interesting one. I think it comes back to my values and also listening to feedback. And so that was probably the point when it was starting to become the beginning of the end for me in that as a business I do think we could have done more to listen to feedback from the market in terms of what they're telling us and also continue to hold true to the values and the ethos of the business that we set out to build. So for me, while it is a difficult point to reconcile how much, in many ways, blood, sweat, and tears was put into getting an early stage startup from four people when I joined it to 40 people when I left, but I think there comes a point, especially for myself, and it's become more apparent over the years as well, that it really is extremely important to myself that the values of the organization that I work for highly align with my personal values.

15:23

What's underneath that? What do you mean?

15:27

So in terms of a lot of it comes down to feeling like I am authentic and that the work that I'm doing is aligned with what I believe in and what I think as in what I stand for as a human being as well. And from multiple aspects, that would come out in terms of how we interact with each other, how we care for our users, how we care for the world that we're living in.

16:07

Why is that so important to you at work?

16:11

I think it comes back to spending a lot of time at work and so it's a big part of my life and I do want it to be not dissonant and that alignment there is something that makes me feel more healthy, makes me feel fulfilled. And I don't know if I would say it gives me a sense of purpose, but it definitely brings joy in many small ways that I'm part of something bigger that is helping move the world in a direction that I think is valuable.

17:10

You must have a really clear sense of yourself there and who you are and what you believe. Is that something that just comes naturally that then flows out through your work or is it something that you invest in in order to improve your life and improve your work?

17:36

I'd probably say there are peaks and troughs in terms of how much I've been investing in it. So certainly at points, at certain points when it almost feels like I need a catalyst for a change, I tend to do more reflection at those points and these things have become clearer over time and I think at each catalyst point there are common themes that have emerged over the years. And yeah, I would say it's not something that I necessarily do continuously. I do value the practice of meditation and the like, but I would say it comes more from those larger catalyst points where I'm doing a deeper soul searching. And with age as well in many ways that the common themes arise and it becomes clearer and clearer to me what is important to me as opposed to what might be important to the world and the outside.

18:47

I guess the two are related in a way because it's likely that the empathetic Min is also going to... Your own character is going to align with the things that are happening around you. And I guess that will change at different points in your own journey to even if you don't change, the circumstances around you may change. So almost checking in with yourself at those different points and having those different moments isn't necessarily just because you might have changed but also because the world might have changed.

19:25

Yeah, that's probably very true.

19:30

It's like system code in a way. It's almost like it's what we're all operating on. It's the layer underneath that we don't spend a whole load of time programming or thinking about, it just exists as our fundamental and only when we feel murmurs on the top do we then dive down and solve it. As you were talking there, I was thinking about my own experience and thinking, "Yeah, I think I go through that same feeling too," and at least that same pattern where I'd have more reflective moments, try and tie them together with some kind of meditation or whatever someone uses. But it would almost happen in those more sporadic events. And sometimes I was like, "Well, should I be doing that more regularly? Would I be doing better if actually I organized time to do this irrespective of whether I was in an emergency or not?"

20:39

Yeah, I think that's something that I'm trying to do a bit more of myself more continuously as well. But yeah, I would say in the past it's been bigger catalyst events that have triggered that for myself.

20:58

I wonder why we don't do it proactively because I can clearly see why we do it when we have some kind of catalyst moment. But I wonder why it's not something... It's longer term, isn't it? So perhaps the feedback loop isn't quite so instant and if we do it, we don't see the benefit of it straight away. So almost it's just one of those things that we don't end up doing because we don't see it as important in that moment in time. We continually put it off because there's no immediate deadline or immediate need for it.

21:38

And in terms of that balance there, I think there is a balance to be maintained as well in terms of being really over-reflective as well. So I think there is probably a sweet spot and that might be different for each person.

21:55

What do you think the dangers are of over-reflection?

22:00

So I think anxiety is a big one.

22:00

Yeah.

22:03

I think it's sometimes, yeah, overthinking can a hindrance rather than a help. And personally I think that might be why I don't do it on a regular basis or not until I have the frame of mind or the tools with perhaps of maturity to not overthink or not delve too much on anything I'm reflecting on.

22:40

Our work is a practice, often not a thought. And if we are judged by our other practical application of our work rather than what we think our work should be doing, then it makes a ton of sense to spend most of our time in practice rather than in reflection and to have those trenches of reflection. As you get to the end of nate, you've experienced so many different working paths. You've worked at an investment bank, consultancy, an early stage startup as an individual contributor, and then as a manager and you almost have this that you now have all this choice. How do you choose?

23:41

Well, I suppose at that point I would honestly say I did not really choose. I think going to my next role at GetHarlety it was almost a serendipitous moment that I was available and the recruiter reached out and it all fell in place really quickly and really easily. So I would say at that point I did not do much reflection. So with that path beyond that, it happened all, I would say, pretty quickly. I'd probably say the move to WeTransfer was a lot more calculated and a lot more reflective for me. It was at a point when the need to align the company's values with my personal values was growing stronger and stronger and I was definitely in a position where I did not really want to be chasing growth at all costs so moving away from earlier stage startups as well.

25:00

Oh, that's really interesting. So could you just talk me through that? Because this is such a topic that comes up so many times is when you are part of that early team, it's great that the market is telling you something, but if you are constantly striving to grow at all costs then, or at least your startup is striving to grow at all costs, then that will inevitably have an impact on the way that you behave and the work that you do. It's really interesting that you decided to join a larger company because of your values because someone might say, "I'm going to do the opposite. I'm going to join a small company because of my values because I don't want to work for this larger company." How did you come to that decision and how did you make it?

25:44

In terms of that it was a lot to do with specifically the values of WeTransfer as well. So I don't think a sustainable business is exclusive to larger businesses. I think there's certainly a more profitable company would have more opportunities to be sustainable than a VC funded startup that is basically chasing that return on investment for the shareholders. So while I don't think it's impossible to build an early stage startup that's more sustainable, it certainly is a lot harder. And so that was a lot around my decision points there was to also move to a larger, more mature company, but with elements of the values and the way that we build teams that remain true to me.

26:44

When you said growth at all costs, it felt like there were two things that came into my mind. The first was behaviors that you end up having to embody or work that you end up having to do that is driving the company towards that growth, and you might overstep some of the lines that you feel are right in search of growth day-to-day. The other is almost a work life balance thing, is, "I am putting in so much to try and grow this- to reach the milestones," or whatever. Which one of those was it?

27:29

I don't think it's necessarily one or the other, I think it's definitely a mix of both. Yeah, I'm not sure I have a good answer for you there. I don't think it's more one or the other. It was a bit of both and it can fuel itself as well depending on the environment that you're in, almost like that becomes the culture of the business and the nature of the business. So in many ways you get sucked into it.

28:07

And it's so hard because for example, cord has never raised any money and is one of those profitable, sustainable companies and I deeply believe that you can build important companies without a growth or cost mindset. But there are certainly times where cord has grown far faster than I had imagined it would during a period of time. And that growth has pulled cord to a point where I've worried that cord is growing at any cost because it's almost hard to stop it moving at that cost. And it almost feels like maybe the two are different if that growth is being pulled out of you versus if you're trying to artificially increase that growth. But in some ways, at the time, I worried that, well, they're both producing the same outcome which is that we're really struggling to keep up with this growth.

29:22

I do see a point about differentiating that. I think the artificial growth comes at a bigger cost in a lot of ways because it probably isn't sustainable at least at that point and it's almost coming back to the sustainability point after the fact. Whereas having tremendous growth faster than you had anticipated for is quite different to me because it's not that you're discounting the sustainability of it, it's that you've probably had very happier tailwinds that you should leverage and continue to build upon.

30:18

Do you think that there's an argument to say that if you were really career driven and your only focus was high growth as an individual, that actually those environments are the best ones for you because you are constantly being challenged beyond your capability and the growth is so extreme that your own growth will keep up with it?

30:53

Yeah, I would definitely say I can see that environment working very well for different individuals. And to your point, certainly, I'd say in the two years I was at nate, my development as an individual was many times or exponentially faster than it would have been at a significantly larger company. Just through the virtue of the opportunities that would present themselves and also my personal growth would have tracked that growth trajectory of the business. In terms of how long each person can sustain that, I think it's very much down to the individual. But certainly I think a lot of that growth would very much tie with the success of the business as well and whether those opportunities continue to arrive an at some point we might also hit a ceiling in terms of whether... Assuming that a startup is successful and it continues to grow, at some point perhaps the individual might need a different form of experience as well that might not be possible from the startup. And I do know many people who would no longer enjoy a startup when it is a very different environment at 300 people versus that seven people startup and they'd rather go back and re-experience that hypergrowth in the early stages rather than continue to stay with the same startup that might have given them all those opportunities in their beginning.

33:00

I guess it depends what you're optimizing for.

33:05

Yeah, I suppose.

33:07

How has what you've optimized for changed over time?

33:17

That's an interesting question. So I'd say it hasn't changed in the sense that I'm still optimizing for where I'm still learning and growing, just that what I'm interested in learning and growing in might have changed over time, if that answers that question.

33:48

How? How's that changed?

33:53

So I would say when I decided to do my Masters in data science, that was very much driven by a want to further my technical skills in that area and my data literacy. I'd say more recently with going to WeTransfer, that is very much consolidating on the management path and continuing to grow my skill sets on the management path.

34:26

So if you are choosing to optimize for the thing that you want to learn next, how do you know what you want to learn next?

4:41

Yeah, that might go back to what we were speaking about earlier, having these opportunities to try different things in the safe environment, searching for those opportunities, taking those opportunities to try things out. So I'd say that that has been what I've discovered with the broad experience that I've had at early stage startups, the being able to try a bit of everything just because at the kind of sizes of the early stage startups, you do a bit of everything and there are certain themes about building great teams to build great products that have stuck with me throughout my journey. And I think the best way that I can facilitate that going forward and also continue to grow in is to focus on how I can build those teams and foster that kind of environment where teams can do their best work. And that has re-focused me back on the management path that I was starting to do a bit of a lot earlier in my career.

36:04

It's fascinating that your place of work is, if you allow it to be, not only the place that can give you the opportunities for learning, but also the source of what you could be learning too, if you let it be. Almost as if there's this ongoing relationship and this ongoing loop with the outside world and you are constantly in conversation with it where you're attempting to pick up the opportunities that it presents for you, enact them, and then somehow see what difference it makes, what opportunities it then creates, and then pick up new ones. And it's this constant revolving cycle and you can see why someone might want to switch out what environment they're in in order to optimize as an individual. Because if your working life and your work is only as good as the part outside of you that you're having this relationship with and the environment that you're in, then your growth is completely determined by the people around you and the environment that you're in.

37:26

And I think that comes probably very naturally to any kind of software engineers in terms of what they can work on at work and where their interests lie. If those two intersect, great. If not, then, yeah, I would say that someone will probably be looking for other areas or other opportunities where those two intersect a lot better, where they can continue bringing in that direction.

38:03

What do you learn at work that you take into your personal life?

38:21

That's an interesting one. I think, and it probably goes both ways, not just one way, but certainly I think patience. I would probably say that I was a lot more a perfectionist when I was first starting out as a software engineer. And I think that was probably something that came from the fact that your code would either work or it didn't quite clearly. But as I worked more and more in collaboration with others on bigger and bigger projects, certainly that humans are a lot harder than writing code in many ways. And certainly going to management as well that's added a lot more, let's say, shades of gray on that black and white nature. So I'd say that's something that I've probably taken more from the work environment and that's also shifted how I perceive the world as a whole as well. Perhaps it's also age that could also be it.

39:42

When you talk about management as one of the things that you want to learn, as you spoke there, it almost sounded like management was one of those things that didn't come naturally to you because of that patience part and the code made a lot more sense. And that over time, as you now optimize for learning at this moment in your life, you're optimizing for that and sometimes it can be really difficult to decide what you want to learn through work because the mysteries of nature almost throw us off a bit where we try and learn, we feel like we should learn things that we're bad at. We feel like we should take things that aren't going well and they're the things that we should learn. Whereas, for whatever reason, our human inclination isn't necessarily to do the opposite, which might be better for us, which is to constantly try and learn and improve at the things that we're already good at and that we're already enjoying. Do you find it a challenge mixing between the two?

41:04

In terms of that, definitely I think going into software engineering was leaning into that thing that I'm interested in it probably because I'm good at it, a direction and mix of let's say the things that I know I'm not good at. I would probably not class management in that. It's more like I needed to gain more experience with it and I needed the opportunities to experience more situations and more... Yeah, it's not really something you can learn from a textbook or that you can go to, although there are courses, but you can't really go to university and go, "I'm going to do a management degree and actually come up and apply [inaudible 00:42:03]. That'd be perfect. There's a lot more new nuance in that, so I've kind of lost my train of thought there as well.

42:15

But in terms of the balance of those, I would think that I probably do bias towards improving the things that I'm good at more so than the ones I'm not good at. So public speaking for example, is not something that I'm naturally good at. It causes me quite a lot of stress and anxiety, but that's also something that I do think I should have to a certain level, but not necessarily be the best public speaker in the world beyond that. So improving the things that I'm not good at to an acceptable level to me and leaving it there. Whereas with some other things like management now, that's something that I do want to take a lot further than I would with public speaking, for example.

43:14

And all while your learning is, and all of these things that you're picking up are you're headed towards this more meaningful working life and more purposeful working life. And I'm conscious that we've used both of those words as we've gone through it. And I think often it's difficult to know which words to use. Do we want a purposeful working life? Do we want a meaningful working life? Do we want a fulfilled working life? And each one of those words means different things. What word works best for you in that context and why?

44:01

It would probably be fulfilled for me because I don't necessarily feel a strong single purpose in my life. It has changed over time and there are many facets to it. Whereas being fulfilled, I think there's a lot of, it's very much down to an individual what makes them feel fulfilled in their life. And so what works for me isn't necessarily something that would ring true for someone else. So I'd probably go with the word fulfilled. And in terms of meaningful, that's also quite subjective. But just because something is meaningful doesn't mean that you're necessarily fulfilled by it. At least that's how I would think about. it So fulfilled would be my choice of word.

45:01

Min, thank you so much for breaking down how you've made the big working decisions in the past and more importantly, what you've optimized for. In some ways you've cleverly chosen to optimize for something in learning that will constantly change as you do and as the world does. And I hadn't thought about it like that before.

45:34

And honestly I've never thought about it like that before, but speaking with you has definitely helped to articulate that or to clarify that. So yeah, thank you very much for having me.

45:46

Cool. Well, thanks so much, Min.

45:48

Yeah. And thank you too, Ben.

45:49

Bye.