The full body ‘yes’ - Nick Brackenbury

00:00

It's impossible for every company and every industry everywhere, to grow all the time. It's just not a reality. And so you have to accept, "Okay, at some point it's very likely I'm going to have to either let go or fire people in the future." It's just a fact of growing a company. And you try and minimize it as much as possible, you try and lower the odds that you'll ever have to do that, to make sure you always hire the right people, but you're going to have to do it. And so instead you think, "Well, how can I learn to do this in the best possible way so that the people that come out of this actually come out of it really, really positive? When so often this will probably happen, it might happen to everyone at some point in their life, but it'll happen to a meaningful number of people that this happens in some way. How can we make sure that we're one of the really good ones at this, rather than one of the ones where it's very traumatic and difficult for people?"

00:52

When you've made big career decisions in the past, how have you assessed risk?

00:59

I think when you're figuring out what you want to do and how risky it is, it really is applying this mindset of the safe path is almost not as safe as you really think it is. And the risky path is not as risky as you probably think it is. And by that, I mean, let's say you're working for one of the world's biggest corporates. If something significant happens in the world, which is prone to happen, as the last 18 months, 24 months really shows us, the role you're in, probably isn't quite as stable and secure as you think it is. And that's not a scare mongering thing, that's just the reality of a corporation having to make sure it survives.

01:39

And the risky path of going out there and trying something, usually isn't quite as scary, because you have as a person, all sorts of diverse skills, probably many of which you never even realized you have, for roles that you probably don't even realize exist. And by going out there and discovering some of these and taking the leap, you'll probably open up many more doors that would've never even been in your consciousness or that you'd even been on aware of had you not gone out and taken that risk. So it's like when you start your career, it's whatever jobs you've heard about in school, being a lawyer, a doctor, a banker, all the roles that you have in a startup, for example, you never know about when you leave school. These roles that are super cool and really interesting, but they're not going to appear on your high school or your university career site.

02:25

And so I think that's why the risky path probably isn't as risky, because it'll actually open up so many more doors to you and so many more things that you'd never thought of. And I think that's why when thinking about risk, it's like, well actually maybe it's a little bit scary leaving something that's secure and stable, but actually you open so many other doors that were never previously opened to you, that that's probably de-risking rather than adding risk. I suppose you can think, if you got 20 years into your career and have only done one thing and that's very common in older generations, but in this generation that might actually make it harder to move more often if you've just done 20 years all in the same place. And so exploring and discovering things feels actually like the less risky option.

03:09

I'm sure that's something that we've all experienced, having parents or grandparents look at our own career trajectory and wonder why we're moving so often. And perhaps it's in some way, because they were in a different time to us where change was less apparent to them. So when they made that risk calculation, it was a different equation to make.

03:35

Yeah. And I guess we didn't have tools like the internet, tools like Cord back in their generation as well. So discovering and finding out what was out there was much harder. Whereas now it's much more like, okay, you can go on that journey and explore much more easily as well.

03:49

How do you know when you're making a decision and you are, let's say you're taking one of those risks? I guess, inherent in the risk is that it could both go really wrong and it could also go really right where you perhaps realize the things that you didn't know and then you're able to pursue that. Is there a particular framework or way of thinking that you've developed where you've been able to optimize that risk for, I guess exposure and awareness of the things that you are not doing versus the what could go wrong?

04:27

So I think it's very simple. And maybe it sounds too simplistic, but it's something that myself and my brother have always told each other, all the way through our lives. And that is, very simply to back yourself in these decisions. And by that, I mean, when you're weighing up a difficult decision, lots of people have lots of different ways of doing it. I'm quite an analytical person. I'll just make a list of things that I enjoy things I don't like and want to do less of, things I think I'm good at, things I don't think I'm good at, but can work on. There's lots of different ways you can try and weigh it up. But it will never really help you make the big, scary decision. It just helps you think through it. But ultimately you still have to have some emotive input that makes you take a big, scary, risky decision.

05:21

And so the, I don't even know if you can call it a framework, but the approach I use is look at it and just think, do you back yourself? And the answer should always be yes, you do back yourself to do the big, scary thing. And if you then take that, then taking these leaps can seem so much easier and do the lists, do the pros and cons, do the stuff I'm good at, stuff I'm not good at. But ultimately, I think it comes down to an emotive decision when you got to do something scary. It's like you have all the information, but ultimately you as a human being have got to make the decision. And that's why I think just back yourself. Believe you can do it, know you can do it. And the worst that comes out is that you fail and you learn a lot along the way.

06:05

Is it that you should back yourself in any decision or is it that you should back yourself only on the paths or the decisions that are resonating most with you?

06:16

Yeah. I think if it's something that's people often talk about a full body, yes. Where it's like this is something that you know you want to do and you're like, "I need to do this thing." But then it's often that prompt of how do you then take that leap to make that decision? And that's the hard bit, and I really struggle with that too. As I say, I'm a very analytical person, so I'll analyze the hell out of big decisions and try and find frameworks and processes and they really help, but ultimately it's got to come from some belief. And that's not to say, there are definitely decisions where you don't want to have a naive belief. As much as I would love to quit my job and become a pro surfer right now, let's be honest, I've maybe surfed for two weeks in my life and I'm 33, nearly 34. So maybe as much as I would love to do that, that's probably a bit of an irrational one.

07:19

But I think in the ones that, you understand well, you've done your diligence, you've done your work, ultimately, when it comes to making the decision and you've got the information there, it's going to be one that just has to come from belief in yourself.

07:32

You use the words belief and full body, yes. And they're both terms that are, they almost transcend the moment, they are in some way greater than the specific detail that you are working through, you are listening to your whole body and you're utilizing some belief system or faith. Is that deliberate?

08:01

I think as humans, we have a lot of our, I guess what you'd call instinct that is based on lots and lots of inputs gathered over your whole life. And you're not, in some ways we're really by add, but also we're better than we think at interpreting those. It's that when you're in an uneasy situation, you're not sure why, but you're like, "Something about this doesn't feel right." And you have no idea why, but something that your body's captured has taught you that... Hopefully not just watching too many scary films and it's an irrational one, but usually it's pretty good.

08:43

But I think that can also be applied for these sorts of decisions where it's you have so much information that you've probably synthesized to try and work out, let's say the salary of a job isn't quite what you think, but it's in a really cool location that you'd love to live in, but it's a bit far from your parents who you want to see more often and can your partner move there as well? But your boss is going to be really awesome. But do you believe that the startup really has the runway to go where you think it is, but you see this markets... There's so many inputs that are on each side, it's some way you have to go with, do you really believe in this, do you believe in yourself to take it? Because it's almost impossible to know truly what's going to... You're trying to predict the future, and no one can do that, as much as we love to have crystal balls. Although I don't think we would, because it would make the future really boring.

09:38

What timeframe do you use to make decision?

09:40

What kind of decision I guess?

09:43

Where you're deciding to allocate your time in those moments where you... I guess that's a good question though, because actually I think you could have, there are different types of decisions that you need to make in your working journey. So you might have a moment where you make a decision to change the environment that you're in, the culture that you're in, but the skills will stay the same and you'll be doing roughly the same job. You just want it to be slightly refreshed perhaps.

10:05

Yeah.

10:05

Or there might be a moment where you make a career transition perhaps that they would typically be, I think the two core ones that you'd make.

10:12

For myself personally, it's over a few months, but then when you actually get to making the decision, I think it should be no more than a week or two of time. So by that, I mean, when you start thinking about these things, they're probably pretty nebulous. It's like, "Okay, what do I want to do? How should I start thinking about this?" And you'll go into a bit of a phase where it's like, what do I need to know? What do I need to think about? Who do I need to talk to make this real? And what that looks like for each person will be different. Some people that's a lot of just going out on the internet and Googling and discovering. Other people it might just be talking to loads and loads of people, but there's got to be this filling the bucket with information to help you understand the thing you're going to do.

11:05

But then at some point that bucket will be full and overflowing. It's that there'll be more inputs than you can possibly use, but it would be very easy to then just keep adding more information. And I'm really bad for this, unless I then take this second step, which is then you then got to give yourself some period of time to then make the decision. And probably publicly commit to that, with a few, whether it's a close family member or friends or something like that, but it's like, "I've got to commit to making this decision by a certain point in time." Otherwise it's very easy to just keep gathering information, keep gathering information.

11:40

So for me, I would normally do that when I'm thinking about big decisions about our business, I'll try and do it over a time where I'm actually disconnected from the business for a week or something. So it's like there's a moment for reflection, but I know there's a clock on that, that it's like, okay, you've got a week to sit on this, give yourself some clear head space and then decide and tell someone that you're going to do that as well. So there's some commitment.

12:06

So I think, yeah, there's two parts to it, there's a few months of going from initial idea to having put the perspectives and information you want, but then at some point you've got to then condense that down and say, by X date, a week or two away, I'm going to have actually made a decision.

12:21

Yeah. How did you make the decision to start in the industry?

12:28

So this goes back to the safe path not being as safe as you think, and the risky path not being as risky as you think. So my co-founder, Max, had pitched me this idea, this literal light bulb moment, where he was sitting at home about to have some friends over for dinner, and the light bulb went in his living room and he googled it and Google told him all these places to get it delivered the next day. And he's like, "This must be in stocks somewhere nearby." So he ended up wandering around his local neighborhood and eventually found it in a store, 100 meters from his front door. And he's like, "How is this so hard to figure out that it's in this shop just down the road and so easy to figure out it's in some warehouse 100s of miles away. That's ridiculous."

13:12

And so I'd sat on this for a few months and I'd been working on the grad scheme or I was a year or two from the grad scheme, Ogilvy, which is one of the world's best and most prestigious ad agencies. So I'd been there like five years, was with an amazing team, had an incredible boss that was growing this new digital experiences capability really, really quickly. But this idea that he put in my head was niggling at me. And I had been researching it, trying to find out who's doing this? Is this a really big idea?

13:45

And what started to really eat away at me was I'm on this awesome career path, and I'm like, to avoid using startup cliche, I'm on a rocket ship with an amazing boss and an amazing team that's just going from strength to strength. But I can also see what the next five or 10 years of my career looks like here. It's a little bit less each year of the grunt work. It's a little bit more of the decision making and being in the big meetings and going on the cool client trips and all that. But it's basically just like a sea-saw that's going from menial work to big decision work, but it's basically the same work.

14:28

And I was like, "Okay, that's fine. And I get paid a bit more every year, but it's very predictable. I basically can see what the next five or 10 years of my life look like, and I'm going to be acquiring new management skills, but I'm not actually going to be learning much more than is just on a very predictable learning path."

14:49

And I looked at this opportunity and I thought, "What's the worst that can happen? I'm in my late 20s, I've saved some money, but not a ridiculous amount, and right now the opportunity is put that down as some deposit on a house and get that locked in as like, okay, that's a giant ball and chain I'm now going to lag around. Or I can quit this, have a crack at this for six months and see if it goes anywhere. And if nothing, I've learned a ton along the way, it's something that I really believe is going to happen and is going to define the future of how we think about shopping. And it seems like a moment that's really changing in the industry. So I'm going to meet a bunch of smart, interesting people. I don't know who they'll be, I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what doors are open, but I'm definitely going to learn a lot over the next six months. If the whole thing blows up and doesn't work, and if it goes longer than that, I'll learn even more."

15:45

And so it was that, the risky path then didn't seem so risky and the safe path was like, well, it doesn't feel so safe. I'm just going to be doing the same thing. And by the way, I should say, for some people that's great. That's also a career that they're very happy with and there's nothing wrong with that. But it's also like if you're thinking, "I don't want to try the risky thing, because this safe option seems so safe and I'm scared to try the risky thing. It's not that risky." So yeah, that was the framework that I came at it with

16:14

Reminds me of so many different themes that we all read about and try and take in, but sometimes struggle to apply to our decision making. You could take a Carol Dweck growth mindset to it and say, what you're doing is you're optimizing for your growth mindset that way you could take a finite game versus an infinite game, and say actually the decision you're making there is to enter into an infinite game. And you're trying to practice conscious leadership, but rather than focusing on something that isn't truly growth, you are embracing learning somehow. It's almost as if you're managing to transcend the nit tip for tap type decisions that you're making or the specifics of the scenario. And instead try and find a deeper trend that whatever happens, even it goes wrong, you've latched yourself onto somehow.

17:16

Yeah. I think that's a really good way of framing it. And while he's not someone I aspire to be like as a person and a leader in many regards, particularly given we're a retail tech startup, but I find it fascinating how someone like Jeff Bezos makes decisions, which is where this is like there's this internet thing happening, and I don't fully understand everything about it, but it's definitely a thing that's happening. And I want to be on that wave and not everyone's going to catch the wave, but if I can get on it early, it's going to be a hell of a ride and I'm going to learn so much.

17:56

And I think that was also part of what we looked at here, is the high street is going through such a moment of transformation and that can look like a lot of destruction, but off the back of that destruction comes a lot of amazing opportunities to build a better future for it as cheesy and cliche as that sounds. And no one knows exactly what that's going to look like. And we've had to pivot the business on that journey in quite a significant way, at least once. But it's also like it's definitely happening and it's like, cool, let's be a part of this and play some smaller, hopefully large part in that.

18:31

When we assess pros and cons, when we make this decision, I think the typical way that we would go about doing it would be to look at the pros, what could go right? And then the cons, what could go wrong? And it sounds like you almost imagined that the worst case scenario as the base level. And then you looked at the pros and cons of it all going wrong. Was that a conscious decision?

19:04

I definitely look at worst case scenarios because I find that while it can be a little bit morbid, there usually again, never is bad as you really think. And if you go back to this principle of backing yourself, it's also like, "I'm pretty sure I can get myself out of this." So yeah, I've never thought of it as a base case to build from, but actually that's a really interesting way of framing it, is saying, yeah, if this is the floor that you're building up from, actually, it's not such a scary floor to build from.

19:32

When you are at that moment where you are making the decision, so let's say that you've gone through it, you're looking at the pros and cons of the worst case scenario. You said a phrase earlier, which was like, you want to have a full body, yes. How do you, when you're being hit by all of these inputs, how do you listen to your body in that moment?

20:02

I find it's like that thing where you almost have a little bit of, I can only describe it as positive anxiety where you really want to do something and you're almost trying to talk yourself out of it in some way. But you know you really, really want to do the thing, but you're there almost like saying, "Is there a reason I should not? Is there any reason that I shouldn't do this?" And when you start asking yourself that question, that's like you think, "No, if I'm now trying to find reasons not to, and to somehow," yeah, talk myself out of it is the best way I would describe it. That's when I think you're at a point where it's like, okay, this is probably the right thing to do.

20:53

You've got to a point now where you've not yet made the decision, but you're there like, "Is there any reason not to do this thing? To go on this trip, to make this leap, to make this decision?" And that's probably the best way. And then I'm sure there's all the actual feelings that you get that come with that, some level of nervousness, probably a large level of elation and relief once you've actually made the decision, but coming up to it, it's almost, I guess, if you're a stage actor just before going on stage, but in that really positive sense of, "Okay, here we go." And how that expresses in everyone I'm sure is different, but that's probably how I'd think about it.

21:33

And how do you get to the depth of that? Because it's one thing trying to figure through those emotions and figure out whether the anxiety that you're experiencing is negative or positive. And then there's another thing which is, just practically speaking how are you getting to that level. What are you doing to consciously, deliberately, listen to your body and your emotions and your feelings there?

22:03

So for me personally, it's a combination of trying to enable free thought and then writing it down and giving it some structure. So by free thought, I mean, for me, I'm a very outdoors, active person. So I go running a lot. I go cycling out, I go swimming quite a bit. And when you're doing some of the easier sessions, they're quite good moments to just let your mind wander without any real specific direction, but just let it go off and do its thing and just think about everything. When you're riding a bike, you can't have a list of agenda points you want to think through. As much as you'd love to, it's not going to happen. But it is a good chance to try and think through things, but then, okay, now how do you bring this back and start capturing it and writing it down?

22:55

And at first, maybe that's really unstructured and that's just mind maps or it's just scribbling thoughts down on paper or phrases. Phrases are often things that stick with me when something really resonates that I've just thought it's like, okay, try and hang onto that phrase, because it really feels like a great summation of everything I've been thinking about in the last half hour. And it'll trigger me to think about it again. And so when I get back from these things or it can even just be on a notepad on your phone, but it's just start to write it down. And then I find once it's in written form, these things start to hang together a little bit better.

23:27

And so that's how I build up to it is making sure you have this for that free unstructured thought, which is where I think a lot of creativity happens and I'm sure some scientists, far smarter than I am, can probably explain why the brain does that and operates in that way. But I guess that's why they say lots of people's best ideas come to them in the shower. Brain's half switched on, but not at full capacity.

23:51

It sounds like that CPU time.

23:55

Yes, exactly. Yeah. So giving yourself the freedom without an agenda. It's quite creative process if you think about it. And the worst way to be creative is to give yourself a really formal, rigid, time to be creative. So if I'm like, "Ben, you need to be creative right now. Get started, please." It's like, oh, God, that is the worst environment to try and get you to come up with novel, new ideas. I need to think of five new ideas right now, get started. You have 10 minutes. Maybe that happens in workshops sometimes, but it doesn't really foster creativity. You need to have that freedom, but then you need to do something about it. You need to actually say, "Okay, this is great that it's all swimming around in my head, and I've had all these interesting thoughts and ideas, now, how do I start to put them down and put them into some structure," that you can then build from and work from.

24:47

And in a startup environment, I guess it would be like the post-it organization phase of generating ideas where it's like, what are the themes that are coming out in this? Where are the things that the clustering of ideas and how do I try and make sense of them?

25:03

Is understanding your own motivations behind all these decisions something that you've deliberately thought about?

25:11

Yes. Not before them though. Because I find if you try and overanalyze yourself or not overanalyze, that's probably the wrong word. If you try and reflect on why you're doing something in the moment that you're doing it, I find it's quite hard. It's much easier to reflect on it afterwards and try and learn from that and take it forwards than reflect in the moment. So if you're there saying, "Why am I really doing this? Why do I need this change? What is it that's driving this?" You can definitely do it, but I find it's quite hard to get to a good answer until after the fact. And then you can learn something about yourself after the fact. But doing it in the moment, I personally find really difficult. I'm sure some people are more in touch with themselves and better at reading it in real time, but I find it's much better and easier to reflect after the fact.

26:02

And do you ever do any prep beforehand? And I guess, I ask this more on a personal level, in order to make these types of decisions and to have that full body emotion and that full body yes, and to have the confidence that you've had to be able to make these big decisions when you've got a wonderful boss and so many other people be so envious of that scenario, that has to come from a certain place of confidence in your own motivation. And is it something that you have been aware of in the past and thought about deliberately, what is motivating you underneath all this?

26:42

Yes, I have. I actually find it quite hard to get to an answer. And we actually ask candidates a version of this question when they're interviewing with us, which is, how does working in NearSt get you closer to somewhere you want to be in the future? And I actually find it a difficult question to answer for myself, but it's also deliberately not where do you want to be in five years or 10 years? But it's just like, where do you see yourself going now? Because I think we change so much as people, through our lives and also as new opportunities come up and the world changes around us, that when you're thinking about it in advance, I find it really, really hard. But what I do find is having just a really good understanding of just the core types of activities and conversations and reading. The things that you find really interesting, just try and understand what it is about those that gives you energy. I find that's really useful.

27:45

So I started doing something recommended by Tim Ferris actually, called a past year review at the end of each year. So instead of setting New Year's resolutions, which are yeah, doomed almost from the start, what he advocates doing is going through your calendar and actually your photo reel on your phone. Because they're now all organized by date, and just go through those. And just week by week, for each week of the year, just note down anything that gave you particularly strong and positive energy and things that you found really draining on your energy. And just think about it as, I came out of that week buzzing, or I came out of that activity or that day buzzing. And oh, this thing was like [inaudible 00:28:27]. That week really took it out of me. And just write it down at the end of each year.

28:31

And then just go through that list. You can probably fit it on one piece of paper and just look at the things in there and just be like, what are the commonalities between the things that really gave me a lot of energy and what are the commonalities between the things that really drained it? And that will probably tell you a lot about yourself, that just looking at these really basic things can really help you in understanding yourself. And then from there, I think it's much easier to get to, "Okay, what do I want to be doing? I want to be doing more of this and less of this. And what does that now look like from the kind of work I want to be doing?"

29:07

And so I found that very helpful rather than trying to just think about myself and what gives me energy. Because if I think about myself and what gives me energy, it'll be biking, it'll be hiking. And I'm like, "Okay, these are great. I could try and do something with them, but what was it actually about them that was giving me energy?" So I find that's quite a helpful process.

29:27

Why don't you go and bike and hike all day?

29:32

It actually goes back to a similar reason to why I left Ogilvy, which is I actually started my career as a ski instructor. I finished school, I went and trained for a few months and I've skied my whole life and started working as a ski instructor for a year. And then throughout uni, I went and probably did six or eight weeks work every year out in the Alps. And I really thought about it and I love the mountains and I love skiing more than anything.

30:00

But I also looked at it and thought, "The longer I do this, the more specific my skillset becomes to doing just that one thing. And it becomes harder and harder for me to do other things. And do I know in myself that I definitely want to do just this one thing for the rest of my life? And I really, really love it. But would I only want to be doing this for the rest of my life? And the longer I go down that path without opening myself up to other opportunities, the more likely that becomes as like, well, that now is harder and harder to have other options available to you." And so that was part of it.

30:39

And then the other part is this idea of doing what you love. And if you're not careful doing what you love can make you fall out of love with it, if you do it for too long, or you're not good enough at it versus doing what you're really, really good at. And then you'll probably find you get a lot of energy from that. We all generally enjoy succeeding and being good at stuff. And so I also thought, "Is there a risk that I stop loving this thing that gives me so much energy and joy?" Versus trying to discover stuff where I can make a really big impact on the world or the people around me and do that. And it's probably not going to be skiing, but it's probably going to be something else that I'm good at that maybe I don't even realize I'm good at, unless I try and I find what that is, because I'll get a lot of energy from really succeeding and helping other people succeed.

31:28

How would you assess that against someone who might say, "How can you get good at something you don't love?"?

31:33

I don't think it's a case of... I think if you're really good at something and you really don't like it. That's one thing. I definitely, maybe I could get good at the amount of time as a founder, you spend reading legal documents, maybe that's something I could actually get quite good at is unpicking them. But I really, really don't like it, even though I think I could probably be quite good at it. So that's like, okay, I'm never going to get good at that, because I'm never, ever really going to want to put the time in, even though I think I probably could on a technical level, get there. So I think there's got to be, within reason, some base level of, okay, this is something that's interesting to me. It's maybe not riding mountain bikes or skiing, but it's interesting and if I invest some time in this, I can actually get really good at it, and then that's going to be very motivating.

32:29

As you talk I'm like I have so much respect for the part of Nick that isn't the romantic. You're very brave not to just follow your love and your passion there. It's almost as if there is a part that's almost, it doesn't like it's restricting, but it's optimizing for a longer term Nick, rather than the short term in the moment, Nick.

33:08

The path that I'm on right now, as a CEO and a founder of a startup is you'll note, there's a lot of really messy, challenging, stressful things to do, but you can also enable so many other people to do such great work and do really amazing things, which gives me a lot of energy and makes all the very difficult pieces really worthwhile. And the outcome of that, is it also enables me to do more things that I probably wouldn't have been able to do or could, yeah, could have otherwise done that genuinely do give me a lot of energy. And it opens up things that are just really, really joyous, and yeah, just fill you and top up your energy batteries, that you couldn't get by focusing just on the near-term things of doing the things that you just really enjoy in the near-term, even if in the near-term, they are more enjoyable.

34:10

And so I think that's part of life, isn't it? To grow you have to go through some discomfort. You have to go through difficult things that you're maybe not comfortable with, but it then gets you on to a higher level. I guess it's almost like the very basics of fitness that you if you're training the ideas, go through some level of pain so that your muscles or your endurance or whatever, probably goes down in the near-term, but to then go up in the long-term as you break stuff down and then build it back up again. And you'll end up in a much higher, more motivating, more interesting place.

34:40

What's been the most painful part of your working journey so far?

34:43

I'd probably say when we had to pivot the business, this was 2017, there's a realization that a lot of the team you've built will have to be let go. And a lot of the work you've done, that these people have all done is actually going to be parked and trying to find the right way to communicate that and do that in a way where it's like, "Look your work isn't for nothing. It's actually set the foundations for the future that we're now building, but this is a different future to the one that we... Well, the vision is very much the same, but the future is a little bit, it's in a different kind of path to get to the end goal." And that's really tough because people have invested their time and energy in making this vision and this future and this idea possible. And it's like, okay, we're going to shift course here.

35:44

And that, I found really difficult. And the great thing is I think everyone we had to let go, actually it was very, very positive in the end. And I'm not saying this to just gloss it over. I think everyone, because we're very open understood that and they saw why it had to happen, but it doesn't make it any less, okay, everyone's put their energy and their time and their commitment and a lot of hard hours into this and now we're going in a different direction with it. So I definitely found that a really, really difficult process.

36:18

And on a personal level, that's when you're doing an energy audit and you look back on that experience, though it is something that is required of you in that moment to make that decision. I'm sure you didn't go into the end of that week feeling buzzing or-

36:36

No, not at all.

36:36

... enjoy it in some way.

36:38

Absolutely not at all. But I think you also can then take something from it because what I took from that is it's impossible for every company and every industry, everywhere, to grow all the time. It is just not a reality. And so you have to accept, "Okay, at some point it's very likely I'm going to have to either let go or fire people in the future." It's just a fact of growing a company and you try and minimize it as much as possible, you try and lower the odds that you'll ever have to do that, to make sure you always hire the right people, but you're going to have to do it.

37:15

And so instead you think, "Well, how can I learn to us in the best possible way so that the people that come out of this actually come out of it really, really positive?" When so often it might happen to everyone at some point in their life, but it'll happen to a meaningful number of people that this happens in some way. How can we make sure that we're one of the really good ones at this, rather than one of the ones where it's very traumatic and difficult for people?

37:41

And then that becomes quite motivating because it's like, okay, it's never going to be pleasant. These things are never enjoyable, but actually if we can be one of the ones that makes this part of companies and part of startup building a really positive thing, then we're making some positive impact here.

37:55

What impact did that have, that experience have on you later on? How did it inform your own working journey in the month and years since?

38:08

It's a good question. I think it shifted our mindset from being, not just a startup, but a company and a business as well. Because that was relatively early in the company. And at that point it's like lots and lots and lots of ideation and experimentation and let's try all kinds of crazy stuff. And you're really a family as a team when you're super early and that that small, and that's awesome. And it allows you to do all sorts of things, but you also, you realize for everyone there, you also have to make it a business to make it work. And you have to then try and be mindful that these two ideas are, one leads to the other often, but it's quite hard to run them both at the same time.

39:02

And so for me, it was really that moment of, okay, we have to start thinking about this not just as a family and a bunch of friends that are building something as a group of six or eight of us or 12 at that point. But also, we have think about this as a company, because as much as this can be a really fun project that everyone's on, if it doesn't work as a business, all these great things we can do as a culture and as a place where everyone's having a great time doing super cool stuff is for nothing if you can't sustain it.

39:30

And it really made me reflect and think a lot about, how do you square those two ideas? That you want this to be an amazing place to work, but you also don't want to make it so much that it's like, you don't want to shift into it being purely a family thing and it's a bunch of friends just doing a project together, as great as that is. And that was again, really difficult to square. Because it's like, how do you keep all the good bits, but also bring in the bits that are much more like a business to make sure it's viable in the long run? Because otherwise all the good bits are for nothing if you can't actually make it work as a business

40:02

Parallels between the decision that you've made to leave Ogilvy and start NearSt, as opposed to the pivot that you made. There are some parallels between the two, it seems. On the one hand you're having to deal with the sunken cost fallacy where you've invested in a really disparate period of time into something, but then you're also having to optimize for this longer term goal that exists in the future. And you're trying to figure out the path to get there. Did it feel like there were parallels in your decision making when you made two? And were there any others that we haven't noticed?

40:40

It didn't at the time, but on reflection, absolutely. It's at the time, I think you're so in the moment and it is very easy to lose the wood for the trees and yeah, you end up just in up to your eyeballs and figuring out everything that needs to happen to get somewhere and just trying to have these different decision making processes, just run through and figure out almost impossible decisions. But then after the fact, definitely... It's one of these things in hindsight, you'd always think, I wish I'd made this more structured approach to this thing or applied this framework earlier to that.

41:24

But I think that's also just part of having a growth mindset is you can only ever look back and learn from it and think, "Next time I should definitely do this," but taking that time to reflect and then think, "Okay, I can now apply this to future decisions." And it makes it that bit easier. And it's not that you will every time, you'll definitely forget in the future, because sometimes you don't even know you're in that same moment. You don't recognize where you are often until after the fact, but just doing it over again, and just trying to be conscious about it, I think really, really helps.

41:53

How do you decouple your working journey now from the company's journey?

42:01

I try once a year to go through and look at what I really want to be doing. And this past year review that Tim Ferris does, I find really helps because that's am I still getting the energy I want from this? Am I being able to do and achieve the things I want to do in life? And do I believe that the company's going to enable me to do that? Because that's really important still as well. And every year I've gone through that and the answer has always come out as, yes, absolutely, there's a lot of tough things in this, but it enables me to grow and do a whole bunch of interesting things and meet and work with a whole bunch of really amazing, interesting people that I know otherwise wouldn't be able to.

42:45

And that's taking that moment once a year to decouple it, I find is really important because when you're within the year here and when you're within the day-to-day work, absolutely as a founder, it's one and the same. It's the company and your success are directly tied to one another. And there have been periods earlier in the company where I've gone two, three years on the trot just without ever decoupling the two. And just being like, particularly in the earlier days of the company, it's just one and the same thing, and I don't think that's super healthy because then it's like a, this must work at all costs, and I don't think that's a smart or a healthy way to look at it because then whether it's good for you or the company, I think the two are tied together. And if you're just working yourself to the bone, just to make it more work for the sake of making it work, then it helps no one, yourself or the company included.

43:39

So probably for the last two or three, it must be the last two years now, since the pandemic started, each winter, I've taken a bit of time to reflect and just think about, "What do I want to be doing? And does that align with the company?" And the good users, we're still sat here talking today and that they absolutely, there's so much opportunity and so many exciting things, but you do have to step back and take stock of them.

44:02

What time period do you use to look out and make that decision? So I guess not necessarily the time period that you use in the moment and the the weeks with which you make that decision, but when you are doing that year review and you're reflecting, one of the things that I think is so difficult is we know intuitively that we should be thinking about the long-term. But the long term, the world is changing so quickly. What does long-term mean? And how far out am I looking? What does long-term mean to you, and do you use long-term? You may use a short-term or medium-term.

44:35

Yeah. I don't think I really look long-term, but as you were asking the question, I was thinking, "What would long-term actually mean for me?" And the default number that popped up my head was just 10 years, but I find it strange thinking, if I go back 10 years, where was I when I was 23, almost 24? And it's like, wow, okay. That's a very, very different place to be. It doesn't seem that long ago, but actually it's a really long time ago. I think the time horizon I look at is, in the next three year or four years, would I still be happy if I was doing the same thing that I was doing today? And invariably there's always a part of that that's no. And then it's like, okay, well what do you need to change to make sure that that actually becomes a yes?

45:25

So yeah, I wouldn't look out any more than a few years ahead, just because I find so hard to think about what would me in my mid 40s want to be doing? It's like, what will the world look like in my mid 40s? It's 2032, I can't even imagine what it looks like at that point. So yeah, I never really think more than a few years out, but I think that's also where having just some principles of things that you won't keep working in something that doesn't keep you happy and keep you motivated and give you energy. You're not going to do things that don't align with your values and people that don't align with that.

46:08

And I think if you've got that as a basis that you're saying, "Okay, I'm going to work. And I'm going to need to make sure that these things are all true," then it makes these other decisions and directions a little bit less scary. Because you're not trying to optimize for some goal that you are not really equipped to set yourself, but as long as you know, "Well, I need to be doing the things that keep these really important things true for me," then great. It makes it a lot easier to think, "How can I just make sure the things I'm doing today and in the next year, keep these things true and help make the things that are maybe not as true as I'd like them to be, make them true again or more true than they are today?"

46:44

It sounds like that's coming from this place of, and it is absolutely the case that our ideals our ambitions, they're almost like virtuous perfections. They are things that are, we wouldn't be searching for them if we didn't look at them and just see them as perfect. And the thing that we want to strive for, one of the hardest bits about ambitions perhaps is that you really look at the pros and cons of an ambition and you just see the pros and it feels like something that's that thing that's perfection. And you inevitably have to make this unwanted compromise in the here and now that it's what you will be doing. There are some things that are that truth that you'll enjoy today, but some things that won't be, how do you, as someone who is ambitious and someone who wants to achieve those ideals, how do you live with yourself that you're not part of that perfection?

47:48

Meditation definitely helps. And mindfulness practice that is just being comfortable and aware of what's happening in the present moment. And not just only ever trying to think about either ruminating on the past or trying to imagine and think about and worry about the future. And I think it's also being comfortable that no one, absolutely no one has it nailed and perfect. And I don't think that exists and just being comfortable with that. So it's like... I remember it was a year or two ago, I was reading one of these many different blogs on, I forget if it was for founders or just for people in startups or generally people working in tech. But it was like, how to stay healthy and optimize your day.

48:35

And you went through this and it was like, make sure you get eight hours sleep, make sure you have three good meals, make sure you allow this amount of time for sport. And you went through the blog and you looked at it and you were, "Someone's got to extend the day to 28 hours for this to work. These are great. And I love everything in here, but if you actually pause to read the different sections and put them together, this person literally is suggesting a 28 hour day." And they're saying this should be your daily routine. You're like, "It doesn't add up." And I just remember smiling at the time and thinking, this actually sums up so much of life advice or productivity advice or pick your blog. Generally, if it's five things that all start with the same letter, just don't read the blog because it's an oversimplification of probably a much more nuanced and almost unsolvable problem or unsolvable challenge and just being comfortable that it's like, you're never going to optimize this thing.

49:33

And don't ever assume that everyone around you has optimized or even some of the people, or even the best 2% or 1% of the people have solved this. Just assume... I don't think Elon Musk has optimized how his days work. I'm sure he is pretty good at it, but I also don't think he's there. You read this blog of the five Es of excellence from Elon Musk and how he achieves 28 hours work in a 24 hour day. And it's like, "Well, he's not going to be nailing it. He's just very, very good." So just be comfortable that no one else is nailing it perfectly. So you don't have to either.

50:09

I love breaking down how you've made decisions.

50:14

Just be comfortable with imperfection and back yourself.

50:18

Thank you so much for sharing it.