Noticing your own disenchantment - Laura Hanna-White

00:00

We all get that feeling at some point in our careers where we wake up on a Monday morning, we just don't want to go to work. And it's not because it's January and it's two degrees outside. It's because there's something that just doesn't feel quite right. And I think if we feel that way over a prolonged period of time, it means that something isn't working. Six months down the line, you're still feeling that way, then that's probably a bigger change that's needed there.

00:21

When do you ever talk about deciding how to deploy time?

00:25

In what sense?

00:26

Your own time.

00:27

Like how to spend my time?

00:29

Yeah. Whether you choose to freelance, whether you chose to do it permanently, whether you choose to work on this project or choose to work on that project.

00:40

I think if you have a network work of friends, I think that's something that will come into conversation if you work in similar areas. So I have not freelanced. It's not something that I personally would enjoy, but I have got friends who are contractors and we've had conversations about, how does that work? How does the financials behind it work? Because it's a different way of paying yourself if you're self-employed under your own company. And it's a different kind of way of working than if you're permanently employed somewhere that you could stay three, five, 10 years. So those conversations will happen organically if you have the network for it. But outside of that, people write blog posts. There are slack groups, there is LinkedIn, but it's not something that is completely in your face, unless you naturally come across these people.

01:24

Yeah. Where did you first find that network for you?

01:27

Probably through university and then work. When I first started out as a software engineer, I attended a lot of meetups in London, and I think I'm lucky with London being the city that it is, there's a meetup for literally everything. You could be interested in Mars dancing and you'll find a group of people who are also into it. So the tech community in London is varied, but it's still fairly small as well. Over time, you'll start seeing the same people at the same events and running into them and you'll see them at conferences and talks that you go to. And that was great pre pandemic, but post pandemic, even though those things are slowly starting to come back, a lot of it's still online. You've lost that kind of social aspect. I think I'm just lucky that I got in early enough that I was able to build a network over time.

02:08

Was it a conscious decision?

02:10

To an extent. When I was in university, I studied computer science with artificial intelligence. So I knew that working in tech was something that I was going to do. I knew that it was most likely going to be in London because that's where I studied and lived. So I started attending these events sort of to see what are different roles like? What are different companies doing? What could I be expecting to do once I graduate? What kind of things should I be aiming at? I had it set in my head, even in final year, that I needed to have a job offer before I graduated because I like to plan absolutely everything. So I kind of forced myself to go to these things so that I could have a view of what was out there post university.

02:47

And were you successful?

02:49

I was. I had an offer by March of my final year and started that August.

02:53

Okay. And that was ANDigital.

02:56

That was ANDigital.

02:56

Okay. And then you go on a really interesting journey. You go Dr. Link, I manage, and now Apolitical.

03:03

Yeah.

03:04

And you have this interesting journey where you've gone from university somewhere for a little while, and then you've experienced a couple of different companies at once. Run me through that.

03:15

So, ANDigital is a consultancy. So you would work on different projects. And I think as a fresh grad, that was a great experience for me, because I was able to test drive a whole bunch of different companies and industries while still having the comfort of being employed by the parent company. So while I was there, I was deployed on two different projects, such as British Airways, Whitbread who run Premier Inn. There's an academic publishers. It was kind of a mixed bag. And I was there for, I want to say three and a half years, close to that. And at that point I felt like I wanted to try working in house. And as much as it is interesting moving from project to project, it can also be unpredictable. So you might get a call on a Friday that the hours that your client has been billed for have now run out and you're onto a different client on Monday.

04:02

And that can be really fun, but it can also be really daunting. So then I moved into health tech and that was a deliberate decision as well, because I was quite firm that I wanted to do something that I felt was really worthwhile and had a social impact. So I moved on to there. From there, I got an offer to work in a legal tech company, as a senior engineer. That wasn't right for me. So again, I kind of went back to my mindset of I want to work in something that I've got good mission alignment with it. And I only targeted my job hunt at companies that were doing something that I felt were bringing some kind of social impact into the world and ended up in Apolitical.

04:44

Sometimes personal interests can get bucketed into a bucket that is too big. There's often two parts to it. One is what you yourself enjoy, what you're passionate about, what you do for fun even if no one paid you. And then there's the societal impact. There's the mission of the company that you're working for. And often the two aren't aligned. You might find a company that you really love, that's making a big difference to the climate, but then on the other hand, they might be using Go rather than Python.

05:19

Sure.

05:20

How do you find that balance?

05:22

I think you kind of have to weigh up what's the most important to you. Is one more important than the other? Are you okay with settling for Python in that instance? Or is that a deal breaker? And if it is then that's your priority, not the social impact.

05:34

Yeah.

05:35

So you kind of have to sort of listen to your gut, I think, a little bit, and go where that leads you. I lucked out with my current role in that it ticks the boxes that I'm looking for, but if it didn't and it wasn't giving me what I needed, then that's a different story. My priorities obviously shifted there.

05:53

Have you always been able to listen to your gut like that?

05:56

No, absolutely not.

05:57

Okay. Phew.

06:00

I mean, my computer science degree was like my purge degree. So absolutely not.

06:06

How have you developed the ability to sense your gut more recently?

06:12

I think trying to become more attuned to when I'm becoming unhappy rather than reacting to it once I'm already there. So starting to try and pick up on signs. Am I feeling disengaged, disenchanted with what I'm doing? That obviously means that something needs to change. And trying to figure out, is there something that I have loved doing recently and do I need to do more of that and incorporate it more into my work? Like for me personally, the way that I work best is under good kind of pressure. So I like having lots to do, but meaningful things to do. And I like feeling energized from that kind of work. So if I can find things that are somewhat time sensitive or fairly chunky pieces of work, that's where I know that I work best. So trying to manage my work around that.

06:54

You said phrase which I thought was really interesting. You got better at understanding your own disenchantment, and disenchantment is so different for many people, the way that you phrased wanting people to give you difficult tasks and being challenged in that way. Some other people may feel like that is disenchantment. I don't want that. Actually I'm disenchanted if I don't have that. How have you gone about understanding and defining your own definition of disenchantment?

07:27

I think we all get that feeling at some point in our careers where we wake up at a Monday morning, we just don't want to go to work and it's not because it's January and it's two degrees outside. It's because there's something that just doesn't feel quite right. And I think if we feel that way over prolonged period of time, it means that something isn't working.

07:44

Yeah.

07:44

And I don't necessarily mean that that means it's time to jump ship. Maybe it just means that it's time to assess what you're doing and try and change what you're doing or your own behaviors with things. But I think noticing when something just doesn't feel good or you're feeling pretty low or you're exhausted the evenings, or do you want to talk to your friends about your job? Do you want to tell your partner how your day was? Or do you just want to switch off watch Netflix? And that over a prolonged period of time, generally for me anyway, would indicate that something's not quite right.

08:14

Where do you find the balance between that self awareness and the amount of grit and determination that it takes to get through something? If the obstacle is the way, if the hard things actually are the opportunity in life, then when do you know whether you're disenchanted by something that you do genuinely need to change rather than something that you need to persevere with?

08:43

That's a hard one. And I haven't quite figured that one out. I think a lot of that is to do with time. Let's say you're going through a difficult patch at work and there's a transition period and you're struggling for maybe a few weeks. Maybe that's something that will pass. You can change things up. You can learn to adapt. If six months down the line, you're still feeling that way, then that's probably a bigger change that's needed there. And I think maybe checking in with yourself fairly regularly and seeing how you're feeling at different points.

09:09

I also think trying to make it into a bit of a project, like if there's change going on, or if there's something that you need to change, try and figure out, are there experiments that I can do? Can I try change, say my working hours, the way that I work, the way that I break down my tasks? Can I adapt to things in a different way? Work more closely with my colleagues and so on. And if that hasn't worked, then it's probably not something that you can change in your current situation. It's the situation that needs to change.

09:33

Yeah. How have you gone about deciding on the stage of company that you want to work for?

09:38

I don't actually have a preference with that. I obviously want to work somewhere that can pay me because I like that.

09:47

That would be good.

09:47

Generally. Yeah. But for me it's more about the people that I meet along the way. With my current company, the interview process was just incredibly easy to interact with people. It didn't feel particularly high pressure. Everyone that I met was lovely. We still do it to this day where we try and make sure that a new candidate will meet as many of the team as possible so that they can try and assess for themselves, these are the people I'm going to be working with. And my final stage interview, it was with the director of product and the CEO. And I just really loved my conversation with both of them. And I walked out of there feeling like I really believe in what these people are saying, really engaged with their ideas and their thoughts. I find them inspiring and they're people that I'd like to work for. And that's something that would me more than the company must have 500 employees.

10:40

How did you assess the culture in that moment? Because pre conversation with the founder, right at the end, you have a challenge. How do you figure out whether, I can't talk to every founder in London. How do I know which ones are the right ones?

10:58

I suppose the type of questions that you ask them and the responses that you get back, but also what they ask you as well. Are they interested in your growth, your interests? Are they passionate about what they're talking about? If you talk about their plan for the company for the next five years, do they light up and want to talk at length about it? That's probably a pretty good sign that they believe in it. Is it also a product that you would use if you're the target audience? Is it something that you believe in as well? Do you mesh on those kind of things?

11:26

I think you can also see as well from the people that you meet along the way and the way that maybe you're treated in the interview. Do you have space to ask questions? Can you ask them what their favorite and also least favorite things about the job is? In our own interview process, one of the questions we really like to ask candidates is, can you think of any reason why this wouldn't work out for you? Because it's good to think about the critical side of things as well. Not every job is for every person, not every job is perfect either. So how do people handle those kind of things if you're in the interviewee seat, too, if you ask them that?

11:59

It sounds like some of the things that you mentioned there, they come from a deep self awareness that you have, and you are able to, in that moment, sense the other person's body language, or understand their depth in some way. How do you do that, if you don't have those skills?

12:22

I think that's where you need to learn maybe more about yourself, because if you're not really sure about where your priorities are or what will bring out the best in you, then how do you know you're going to get it from a company?

12:34

It's funny how it all comes back to that.

12:36

It does. I mean, even with our own managers, a lot of it is our job to kind of drive the conversations, ask for what we need, ask when we want raises and promotions and talk about career goals and so on. Like, we're adults at work, we should be trusted to be able to do our jobs and equally we should be able to, I think, look out for what's best for ourselves, too. And having good people around you can help you figure that out, for sure. It doesn't have to be done in isolation. But I do think being able to understand what's important to me, what gets me up in the morning, what makes me happy and not settling for less than that, I think ultimately will lead you to a good place.

13:13

Are there any tools that you've experienced that enable you to increase your own level of self awareness?

13:19

Yeah. I'm big advocate for therapy. I think it's like having a personal trainer for the mind and anyone who has the ability to should experience it at some point in their lives. But failing that, I love lists. I love writing down pros and cons of things and trying to make notes of things that have stood out to me. So if I've worked on something during the period of a week where I've really been engaged with something, making note, like I really liked working on this project with Bob, for example, and then figuring out, is it Bob that was great to work with? Or was it the project we were doing together? And whatever it is, can I have more of that please?

13:55

In some ways, it sounds like what you are creating are conversations with yourself. If you have a conversation with a therapist, they will be trying to enable you to have a conversation with yourself. And if you are writing things down in some kind of second brain, you are effectively reading your own thoughts again.

14:15

For sure. I don't don't know if you've ever heard of the idea of morning page.

14:18

Roughly. Is that the Julia, what's her name?

14:22

I can't remember her name. It was recommended to me instantly by a man in the pub. But the idea is that you write for 10 minutes every morning. I do not do this. I have done it.

14:32

We should.

14:32

We should. You write for 10 minutes nonstop. And even if it is absolute drivel, like "I need to feed the cat," over and over and over. Eventually it may come out with something that you can actually work with or some kind of tangible thoughts on the page. And it helps kind of untangle that brain first thing in the morning when you're not quite awake, your brain hasn't started racing with everything you need to do that day.

14:53

Yeah.

14:53

And you're still in that state. So that's one way that you can do it. I think also trying to be aware of, like I said, when you've worked on things that have made you really happy. So with people who report to me, I've asked them for this as well. Like, can you keep an eye on anything that makes you kind of light up over the next couple of weeks? Or things that you feel like you almost don't notice the time slipping by and you've gotten sucked into a hole, and before you know it, it's three o'clock and you're meant to go to a meeting and you really don't want to leave what you're doing. What are those things that make you want to keep going?

15:22

And how will that relationship affect the way that you think you'll find work in the future? The practical nature of finding it?

15:32

I don't think I would rush into finding work. And I think being in tech, that's something that a lot of us are quite privileged to have the fact that we don't necessarily always have to find something immediately, because it is such a thriving market. So I know that I wouldn't be happy working in an area that didn't believe in or something I didn't feel good about doing. And I have a few deal breaker industries that are just not right for me. So not compromising on my absolute deal breakers, but also figuring out what my priorities are at that point in my life. So right now it's working on something that I believe in. That may change as my life changes down the way. And that's okay, too. But I think being aware of whether my priorities are still the same or not.

16:16

I can't wait to learn what you do decide to do in the future, Laura, and what you do now. And thank you so much for sharing your story.