See yourself as a friend - Ben Phillips

00:00

If I put Thread to one side and what do I see as work to me if I'm like, I want to write code and build something, that's work, but I just love that. And it's easy for me to say that. For me, working, building something is fun. And that's how I'd defined the best thing I do. But when it comes to enabling people and building an environment where people can thrive and shine, that's how I think about everything I do now. So, if I'm going to, we're talking about company strategy, whatever. Obviously we have to think about what will the company do? How will the company succeed? What will make us win? But I think first and foremost, what is going to make to get the best out of my team and give them immense satisfaction on a day-to-day basis. So yeah, in a way it's like I guess I live my work through them now.

00:59

Why is it easier to complain about our work rather than do something about it?

01:09

Complaining is easy, doing something significant to change your situation is often hard. And the reason I think that people don't make a significant change is because there's pain during that change. So for example, you're not happy in your job. You go to work, you get home from work, you complain to your housemate, your partner. Get off your chest, run, feels good, have dinner, go to bed, get up the next day. You're on this conveyor belt, you keep doing it. Stop doing that. To do something different for a start, if you want to do something in the same field, you would have to start job hunting. And we all know how typically soul destroying that can be.

01:52

If we want to do something in a different field, if we're not finding a vocation is really satisfying us, you have to start from scratch. You have to learn something new. You have to put yourself out there. There's like imposter syndrome. People who have been doing it for years better than you. You're going to get a pay, take a pay, cut all these things that are really, really difficult to get you to the point you want to be. And so it's those things I think why a lot of people, it might fair, it makes sense. It's doing those things is really hard. So the framework that I choose to make big decisions like that is forget any short term pain and lean into it almost. You have to put yourself through a difficult situation to get to a better place and not think about this is going to be really awkward for a few months.

02:44

So it's like the hardest decisions, probably the right one.

02:51

Yes. And it almost doesn't matter if it's right or not, because you can make another one later. You can go back, you can change course, right? It's the inner. It's not making the decision is often the wrong one, because then you're just never, especially if you're complaining about where you are, then you're never changing, you're never growing, you're never improving yourself.

03:14

Is switching jobs a reversible decision?

03:19

It depends how you leave, but there's reversible in that you can leave if you go to a new job and it's not working out, or you try something new and it's not working out, obviously some people are more privileged and able to deal with financial shortcomings in the short-term where other people don't have that luxury of switching. But in general, if you switch a job and you don't like it, you can look for another one or try something new. Again, I'm not saying this is easy, it's painful. But the long-term goal is what you should be looking at.

03:57

When you lean into that pain, it can be a challenge to know what pain is good and what pain is bad, because you want to lean into pain that gives you long-term reward, but you don't want to just focus on sorting out your weaknesses and you want to really focus and double down on your strengths. It's almost like there's conflicting advice. On the one hand, you should do things that you really enjoy that you feel are play to you. But on the other hand, we show us to make really difficult decisions that are sometimes hard. It's like, how do you distinguish between two?

04:35

So, the goal is the important thing, and I think, yes, the kind of default case should be enjoying your day-to-day. Right? You should be doing the things you enjoy. And I know everyone's different. For me, I really get a feel from going deep on something and being able to build something and take pride in the result of what I've done. And I think that's a fairly common thing that people have, but to get there, so say I'm going to write a bit of code, going to build a program. The initial thing I do, I may have to think about the architectural research and tool or some program and language. Some of that's really painful. You have to sit down, you don't understand it. It's like, "This is awkward. It's easier to quit and start doing something easy to load a video game, whatever." Right?

05:32

And so that pain recognizing that short-term pain will take you to a better place is the key thing. And then you start recognizing patterns where you are telling yourself not to do something. And you're like, "I don't want to have this hard conversation with a coworker or my housemate or my partner." And you put it off. And then you realize that because the thing that's driving you to have that conversation, the negative aspect of that relationship or the thing you want to improve is still there. The fact that you are then continuing to put it off, that's when you are telling yourself that there's a hard thing that has to happen, a painful thing that has to happen. So I think if you keep seeing the same thing, the same negative aspect of your current situation coming up again and again, that's when it's time to do something difficult.

06:30

It's hard to see those patterns as well, isn't it? It's like, how do you notice it in real time? It's easier to hindsight.

06:37

Yeah, it is. It's no, you get it wrong a lot. I think reflection's important. Like you say, hindsight is great for this kind of stuff. I've made a mistake with relationships, with partners where I've stayed in them too long. And I know I've had people in my team who there weren't the right fit for the company and we kept them on for too long. And I was telling myself that at the time, giving them every chance to succeed. I'm talking about the people in the company, not my partners. So give my colleagues, my employees, every chance to succeed, you give them as much coaching and so on, but I knew deep down a month or two before we let them go, that I should have made that decision earlier. And so reflecting on it, I realized that I was telling myself one thing while feeling the other that I knew that the time was right to say this isn't working, but I was almost kidding myself that I was doing it for another reason.

07:39

So yeah, just reflecting on that, I realized that your mind is very good in the short-term, playing tricks on yourself. I think why people do addictive things like smoking, because short-term, "Hey, you get a small hit for me. It's great." Long-term it's going to kill you. But that seems to override, the long-term thing for that short-term pleasure. So your mind is very good at playing those tricks where the short-term nearly always trumps the long-term. So you have to be rational about it and try and spot it.

08:10

What part of your body is making that call though? This is trick, isn't it? You've got your mind, your gut, your head, your heart, all these different parts that fall into this caldron of decision-making and timing. I mean, I guess if you flip it the other way around, it's just as difficult for someone who's deciding to move from one job to another. It's the same question. There's no immediate event that's pushing something to happen. Instead you have to make this proactive call. And a lot of the time it comes from this kind of concoction of different places in your body. Do you notice it coming from different places or does your focus go to one place in particular or a mix?

08:58

Yeah, it's like the brain is lots of different systems. We have different needs. We have different pulls and different notations. There's human beings do stupid things all the time that damage ourselves constantly. And if you sit there rationally and you think, 'Why did I do that?" Humans always say to themselves, "Why did I do that? Why I did last night? What was I'm doing?" We do things that if you sit down and you're purely logical about it absurd. So yeah, we have lots of competing poles, I think recognizing the reasons for them. So when, again, going back to the painful short-term stuff, the reason why I had one part of my brain trying to kid myself that this was the right decision, to not do anything, was because I was avoiding the hard thing. And I knew that. So you're like, "My brain is trying to protect myself from this short-term pain by kidding itself."

10:00

And then you start having this conversation with yourself about these different competing pulls. And it's tricky. I think a lot people make mistakes, they say thinking that we are one mind where it's very logical and national and we can control ourselves, right? Well, I think the reality is actually a lot different to that.

10:22

Is there a part of one of those multiple bits of yourself that you could attribute your success to? Is there an imbalance in some ways towards one part of your decision-making mind, that's meant that it's guided you in ways that you reflect on and think I'm grateful for that?

10:45

I think the logical part, the rational part, everyone has it obviously. So I'm a big fan of stoicism. And one of the things that has helped me a lot is the ability to control only what you can control. So don't worry about things that are outside of your control. And a lot of the time you're buffed by all these thoughts and feelings and stuff. And so what I often do is I'm like, "Right, what can I actually do now to make a difference?" And just think of it as almost like you're coaching or talking to a friend. So you kind of almost speak to yourself. You're like, "What is it that you should be doing now? Tell me your story. What are you going through? What's your pain?" And you're like, "All right. So if I were you, I do this. Because I am me, so I can do it.

11:38

But that almost pulls you out of all the buffeting feelings and the short-term emotions and allows you to think a bit more rationally and objectively about it. So it's not like you don't ignore them. You have feelings, we're humans also. We have emotions and feelings, and the only thing we can control is how we react to them. And I think that stepping back and acknowledging say, "Hey, I'm feeling pain in my current job. I'm not enjoying myself at the moment. Every night I come home and complain." Okay. If my friend was doing this, what would I tell them to do? What would be my advice? And that just kind of puts the feelings to one side and then you can be as rational as possible.

12:20

How do you manage your ego through that?

12:26

In what way?

12:29

So linked, it's you've got to on the one hand, take yourself out of the context. As you said it, I was thinking, surely your ego doesn't want to do that and wants to stay and is going to say, "No, you're better than being objective. Make the call."

12:54

Yeah. I mean, you have to almost put yourself to the side and look at yourself from the outside. So in a way you're like, yeah. Trying to withdraw from that. I think there are times when it's really hard, I think back on where I'm unable to do it. And I'm just like, whatever is happening to me. My emotions are so overwhelming. And I'm thinking just about myself a bit too much, and I'm unable to be that be rational. So it does take a certain frame of mind or a certain amount of energy needed. But yeah, it isn't always easy because you are in the way of you.

13:40

Yeah. What else have the stoics taught you that you found valuable in your own professional journey?

13:52

So preparing for loss. So one of the exercises of stoicism is you imagine a world where you've lost the things that you hold dear or that you feel that make you, you. So one of the exercises that they did at moment times was the emperors would imagine that if all this was taken away and I was cast into exile, I lost all my people, all my money and all my riches, and I had to sleep on the floor. Would I still be me? And what would I feel? And if you prepare for that, when loss does then eventually happen, you're A, you're ready for it. So you are emotionally better for it. But also you start to appreciate that the trappings of life don't make you, you make you. And you have ultimate control over your decisions.

14:46

And I've done that in personal life and in professional life, I do it a lot. When I first started out as an entrepreneur, the hardest, at least still is the hardest thing, but when really good people in your company leave, I remember vividly the first person that prepared, who left to start his own company. And I was really pleased for him cause he's going to start a company, but I was so gutted that A, he was a great person doing great work, but then I also had to start hiring again, and go through that process. So it was a forced difficult thing, which I had to go to. And then it happened a few times. Luckily our turnovers quite low. So it doesn't happen that often, but when it does, it's painful. But I've now got to the point where I guess I'm practiced at it, but emotionally I'm ready for it happening.

15:40

And I've done it in my personal life with things like family members. It's that you can be that brutal to yourself about it because it's going to happen. You will lose people that you care about. And so being, I guess, prepared to some extent, you're never going to be fully ready for that, just helps you deal with those hard times more. And then also makes you realize that you are all right on your own. You can survive on your own. You can, again, you are you, and you will be here until you're not, regardless of what happens around you,

16:11

What do you do to prepare? Is it as thought? Is it-

16:19

Yeah.

16:20

... getting more used to it in your mind?

16:22

Yeah. There's two things. The kind of just mental process of imagining the world without the thing that you're thinking about, and what the actual original stoic used to do. I don't remember which one this was, but they would actually sleep on the floor. They were an emperor, they had everything they needed, but they would sleep on the floor every often, because to practice what it would be like if they didn't have a bed. So you can sort of take away some of the things in your life for a period of time. It's why people fast. It's why people force themselves to do hard things in that way. And it builds up your resilience as well.

17:03

As surprising as you say that, that we don't do it more often. Another parts of our life, deliberate hardship to try and self-manage our own expectations.

17:16

Yeah. It's really good practice for going back to making hard decisions. If you embrace hard things and you build that muscle, then it makes the harder things easier as well, because you always come out the other side and you'll always get up off the floor and you'll have your bed or hopefully. So yeah. It enables you to be more active and less passive in your life.

17:47

I think part of the thing with death too, is that it's sheltered from our modern life. We don't really experience death really. I mean the closest thing we probably have to loss is naturally that moment when someone passes away, but at a younger age, it's like you said, someone leaves the company or you have a relationship breakup. Actually those moments, we are pretty sheltered from when naturally in the past, I was looking at Gorbachev's opened coffin, and Putin standing next to it. Oh my goodness, that is such a cultural tell that would not happen here. And that must have such an effect on our psyche.

18:36

Yeah, death's really taboo. I actually was friends with someone who's a lung surgeon and she worked or did volunteering for a company called The Death Cafe, where people just went and talked about death, which sounds quite weird. But it was for this reason, in that she spent a lot of her life speaking to people with lung cancer who had terminal conditions. And so she found that when she had those conversations with these people that they weren't ready at all, had never thought about their own mortality, their partners weren't ready for them to not be there. And it was just all of a sudden, bam, you've got three months left to live. This is awful. And so, I think a lot of that is because we're sheltered and it's just not discussed, or not discussed in a kind of positive way because everyone's going to face it. And the only thing that we can do, we can't control it, we can't stop it from happening. The only thing we can do is be as prepared for as possible.

19:46

That's interesting that a lot of the most successful people in our market economy, I think use death as a way to make decisions, but they don't call it death. Like Jeff Bezos uses that regret minimization. And it's like, well, he is effectively saying, "At the end of my life, what will I regret?" And it's almost like we use every other word than death, but actually perhaps that visualization is the best way of figuring out what we should be doing in that moment. Maybe in some ways, because it gets us out of ourselves in that moment and we can look at it objectively somehow.

20:29

And the thing you mentioned around hindsight is really valuable. The great minimization framework basically puts you at the end of everything. And therefore, the only thing you have is hindsight. So you think now I can truly reflect on my entire life, what should I have done differently, but you've got a chance to make that change now. So yeah.

20:48

Is there a relationship between what we're talking about and longer-term views, because one of the fascinating parts about your story is the professional relationships that you've kept for such a long period of time. And you're clearly looking at things with a longer-term lens. That's bringing about some kind of compound interest later on. Is there some relation there and how much of your success would you determine to that longer-term view? Where did it come from?

21:31

I think the longer-term relationships I have, I'm just lucky with, in that, for example, and my co-founder, we met, he was interning at a company I was working for. He was 18 and he was selling his first company to Larry Page's brother, the founder of Google's brother. So he was going through an interesting phase in his life and I'd just moved to London and-

22:02

Funny time to meet him as well.

22:04

And he didn't let me know, because he was on the phone all the time. And everyone's like, why is he always on the phone? Apparently he was closing this deal. And I was leading stats and reporting for an ad tech firm. So I built the sort of data recording system and the report serving system. And he was on the client management team. So he would come to me and ask me for things. And so we got chatting and then he called me a couple months later and said, "Hey, I'm dropping out of uni. I want to start this company, The Outfit." And at the time I was like, I'd moved to London just to get into the tech scene, and then I really wanted to start a company again. I was kind of thinking about what to do and the opportunity was just perfect. But my company was bought by Double Click, who were then bought by Google.

22:47

So I was offered a world inside Google. So it's a very interesting fork in my career. And I was actually in the Google machine for a short period of time, but I had this chance to start a company with someone who I respected and obviously had a track record. So I thought, why not? I can always apply for Google again, if this doesn't work out. So we've got minimization framework, what would I regret more not doing? And it would've been like this one opportunity to start a company with care at that time he would've found another co-founder if I hadn't said yes, and I couldn't have gone back on that. So I was like, "Let's do it." And it just works really well because we have compatible skillset. He's a CEO, I'm the CTO. We don't step on each other's toes. We have very clearly defined and we've never had a raising voice argument in the 16 years. We've known each other. So we were really lucky with that at the time when we started Playfire, our first company, I wasn't thinking about the long-term.

23:51

And I don't actually think that much about the long, long-term, because I guess I've realized that lots of things happen that affect the path of your life and you can control it to some extent, but things change. Right? And so getting too caught up in I want to do this in 20 years' time or whatever, I think can set you up for disappointment. And also it doesn't give you that short-term fulfillment that you need. And so I'm actually quite short-termist in I guess some of my goals and how I think about things. I'm not sure, maybe midterm is the right phrase.

24:35

It's funny that there's this contradiction between living in the moment and seeing long-term and a such challenge to develop a relationship in the way that you have for 16 years, but also live in the moment at the same time and see the benefit of it being over a longer structured time, but still invest in the here and now.

25:03

We didn't start out thinking we're going to have two companies together and we're going to be working together in 16 years time. It's like the here and now at that time for me was like, I want to do something that I have this pull to be a founder of the company. I really want to do that. I have this opportunity. It was a very short-termist and it's just happened 16 years later we're here. I think if at the time someone said to me, you're going to be working with this person for 16 years and start two companies that I might be like, "Whoa, wait a minute." I don't want to decide that now. In my head at the time I was thinking would do this company for a couple years. I'd go traveling and stuff. And I still have in my head that one day I want to go traveling and that'll probably never happen.

25:47

This should climate change stuff. But again, it's like the here and now is actually a really important way of determining what you want to do in a slightly longer-term, because what you enjoying or what you want to enjoy, you want to try and maximize that on a day-to-day basis. Does that kind of slightly corny thing of make your hobby your job, which seems to becomes your job, it's not your hobby anymore, but doing something that you really enjoy on a day-to-day basis. And that is just because every day I get up and now I can work with a great team. And that gives me short-term happiness. So I try and create my life that I can keep doing that.

26:29

How's the relationship with Kieran changed over that time period. And it got better and how's it got more challenging? Because from the outside, that's what people want. People want the type of relationship that you've found together. And there must be the pros and cons.

26:54

Yeah. So one of the things, again, that we're quite lucky with is that as a company grows your role changes, especially as a CTO, but as a CEO as well. And we both share desire to keep improving ourselves and keep learning. And so whenever one of us had a bit of a difficult moment. The other one's been there to pull them up and also pull you down when you're a bit too excited about something. Startups are very much roller coasters and you don't want to experience the peaks and thrusts all the time. You get a bit dizzy. So having that balance there and that we're just both really calm with each other and rational. And we like to just sit and think sometimes, and in some conversations we spend minutes and not talking to each other just, and then actually, what about this?

27:53

And just that ability just to be with each other without any of the relationship things being tricky or any issue, none of that's there. So we can just concentrate on what we need to do. That's always been something that's been really good and has got better over time as we just get to know each other more. And as we've both grown up and both matured [inaudible 00:28:16]. When we started Playfire, Kieran was in his teens still. So he's done a lot of growing up since then. He's now married with a baby as well. So there's a lot of change.

28:24

I was mad that you'd come of age with each other over that time.

28:27

Yeah. He's got facial hair now and yeah, it's all changed, but there's has been, the challenge is we are not best friends, and I think that's a good thing. We have a professional relationship. We obviously, now I've been to his wedding. We know we're close obviously. But I think having that slight arms reach with our personal lives has been really useful, but also a challenge in that there's times when things have happened in our lives that I wish I could share with him a bit more, and I think vice versa. But whether it's like, I think it's almost subconscious that we've done that site separation, but it has, I think helped the professional side of things.

29:20

Yeah. Why was it separate? Why didn't you share those moments?

29:31

And I still do, to some extent, I think I like to keep my personal life kind of separate from my work life. I think that's more of a self-preservation thing, like a boundary thing and Kieran is similar. And so it just naturally happened where we would go home at the end of the day and do our own thing. Obviously in the early days, we would spend a lot of time in the office together, and we'd have beers and we'd play music and stuff. So we did socialize and stuff, but there was that boundary. And I think it was just, like I said, a self-preservation thing, a way of keeping a bit of sanity at the end of the day.

30:18

And you need it. I can't imagine a circumstance where you don't... It must be really hard to keep trust when you are at distance too. Or has that been fine?

30:41

No, totally fine. It's not like we're still close, there is a strong connection. The trust thing was from the very start was there. And I think the separation of responsibilities we had, like I mentioned, I'm the CTO and his CEO. And we both have very distinct roles. In a way, you have to just let go of what? So Kieran's out. He does the fundraising stuff. He does all the best of calls. He leads the exec team and the strategy stuff, while I'm interested in it. And he asks for help and advice sometimes. He does that, and I've never ever, and he does it well, he's just proven himself. So I let him get on with it because there's no need for me to get involved. So I completely trust him with all of that. We've had in this time.

31:35

So we've made so many decisions together, and that I know how he's going to think about something. So when a situation comes up, I know what he's going to do now. And because he's just done so many things together that have worked out. Yeah. There's just trust with each other just because. Yeah. Yeah.

31:58

It's kind of beautiful. It's like you are removing parts of the relationship that other people have in the way. When you spoke about just being sat there and being able to talk with, not say anything whilst you're in conversation, it's like, you're just cutting all of the communication out. And in some ways you're just completely connecting with each other and making decisions. And the relationship has gone past a point where you need to be really close all the time, checking with each other all the time, talk to each other all the time. And instead it's kind of transcended that in a way. And you have a closeness that goes beyond it.

32:38

Beyond it. And it's often said that when a couple in a relationship start a business together, then one of those two things won't go well. So the business will fail or the relationship will fail. And a lot of it is because it's a different type of relationship. You need to do different things. You need to behave in different ways and give each other different things in that relationship and support each other in different ways. So yeah, we don't need those social niceties or anything. And it isn't awkward. Just we just get things done like that.

33:25

What other relationships in your life have been most influential on your working journey?

33:34

So my oldest brother, he was an idol for me when I was young. He was very different. He wore trilby when no one else did and had really long hair and was just very, he was just this character, because he was 10 years older than me. So he went to Uni when I was eight. So we didn't have this close relationship as friends when we were younger, because there was such an age gap and he wasn't around much. He left home and stuff. So as I got older and he started a business, he's always been entrepreneurial. So I saw that. I think that influenced me a lot. And then when I started on my entrepreneurial journey, we kind of got really close and I didn't realize this. When I started studying stoicism, I realized that Jonathan, my oldest brother is the best stoic.

34:35

He's always been so calm and levelheaded and rational. And he's always taught me some of the things that I didn't even know what, like what stoicism, and he didn't know either. We've both started talking about it since he's like, "Oh yeah, I do this anyway. I know you do. This is really cool." So he's a huge influence on me on is just how he behaved and how he's dealt with. He's had a lot of difficult things happening in his life and the way he's handled them all has just been a great example. So he's been a really good influence. Who else?

35:17

My dad was the person who always taught me to lead by example. So my dad was 50 when I was born. So he was like, there was a big generation gap between us. And he never outright told me how to behave or taught me things directly. He would always show me. And that was a huge influence on how I coach and how I teach and manage, and also how I'm raising my child. And that it doesn't really matter what you say, if you do something differently. So he was the person that helped me, I think just be more true to myself and really make me always reflect on how I'm behaving and is it how I want to behave? So yeah, obviously two family members that I like. But you don't choose them, but sometimes you get lucky with them. So yeah, I was lucky about them.

36:22

And as you talk about it, it did strikes me that there's so many past to what you've gone on and done that would've been, I can't imagine them having happened. Had you not had those relationships? Had they not existed in your life? But yet, it's not kind of immediately obvious that we think about the pursuit of work as so individual, but yet, that doesn't feel like that.

36:51

Yeah. I mean, life is a lot of things. Life is a lot of luck. I'm assuming a lot about you, but we're both kind of in privileged positions, we're better off than the vast majority of the people on this planet, and someone who's born in a completely different environment would not be in my position now. If I was born inside in a complete different environment, I wouldn't be in this position. So I think a lot of entrepreneurs are very big on themselves and say, "Yeah, I did all this because of me. And I'm great." And of course you make the most of your situation, but there's a ton of fortune that gets you there. And even if you do everything right in a business, something can go against you and you know, end up not succeeding. And so some businesses succeed in spite of all the things they do.

37:44

I read a fascinating story about a product team, or is it Airbnb? I might be misspeaking? Anyway, there's a product team in a big startup, and they didn't AB test, but they just releasing things, left, right center. And their net metrics were going sky high and it was incredible. And they were really proud of themselves and they started AB testing. They realized all the things they were doing weren't making any difference were just growing because the market wanted what they were building. And if they hadn't have changed a single thing, they would've experienced the same growth. And so a lot of what we do is not necessarily down to the direct actions that we do, a lot of things happen to us. So yeah, the only thing, again, from what I said earlier is how you respond to what happens, making the most of the luck that you have, recognizing where you are in a position where you maybe don't have the opportunities that others do and trying to find a way around them, if you can, but control what you can control. Don't worry about the rest.

38:42

If relationships and circumstances have such an influence on our working life, what are the big themes are there that have been relevant to you that have impacted your journey?

39:02

Sleep? I have had a up and down relationship with sleep throughout my entire life. And I didn't realize how much it impacted me until fairly recently, there was a book I think it's actually called Insomnia by Steven King and it's fiction book, but one of the lines in it is, "There's no bigger divide in this world than between people who can and can't sleep." And I didn't even realize half the time. If I had a bad night's sleep, how much it impacted me? And I have only, I say recently, it's like the past sort of 10 years put so much effort into getting my sleep better. And it is in a much better place now. And ironically, when I had a baby, I start sleeping better. I think one of the few people in the world that happened to, but it's made a huge impact. And then when you're younger, you kind of just push through everything.

40:04

You can have limitless energy. You're invincible. There was a point in my life when I realized that, and I actually had a period of really bad burnout when I realized that I was just trying to work through all the problems and not leaning into them and trying to overcome them, I was actually just riding them and that was not healthy.

40:27

And I've talked about sleep with the company quite a lot. And it's surprising how many people have of difficulties in general with sleep and yet how impactful it is. If I could change one thing, if I had control, I could change one thing to something that I have control over it's sleeping.

40:50

When did you first realize that you were burnt out?

40:54

I walked into a meeting room with Kieran, and our Head of People at the time to chat about something quite innocuous. And it was 6:30 on a Thursday. Went to his meeting, after a meeting. It was after a meeting, another meet, a big meeting. We'd had, sorry, it was on a Friday. So have to do with hundreds meeting. And we went into chat about something and the world kind of just went a bit black and white. And I just felt like something just shift. And I couldn't concentrate on what people were saying. And I was like.

41:25

I said, "Excuse me. I don't feel too good." And I left the meeting room and I was like, I have to get home. And I walked home and I never walked home. I like it is a half hour walk. And I just found myself walking home and halfway home I just started crying. And I didn't know why. So I got home and went to bed with my partner at the time, she came around, I called her and said, "I need help." She came around and she asked me a few questions goes, "You sound like you're depressed. The answers you've given me sound like someone with depression." I'm like, "Well, I don't have depression."

41:59

And then the next day I just didn't want to get out of bed. So another side of depression. And she made me call the doctor. And luckily I was in Hackney at the time. They have really good mental health services on the NHS. So I saw someone that day and he asked me a question. And he goes, "You're sound like you're depressed, but it's only been happening for a couple of days. So you're not clinically depressed, which is really good. What's happened. And I said, this past few months been really stressful, really hard. And I just had this moment yesterday where it kind of just of collapsed a bit and he goes, okay, I think you're burnt out. I think you've had just a mental episode, but the good thing is you are recognizing it. And at the time I could easily take time. I'm very supportive company.

42:47

My co-founder was completely fine with all. My team were fine with it. And I said that I need to take a few days off. And I just was fortunate in that. I kind of just addressed it quickly, reflecting on it. It was coming for months. I was not sleeping well, I knew I was stressed and I was worrying about things that I just couldn't change. And then I was getting home from the office and studying, and I was trying to learn, this is what I used to do all the time. I used to really push myself. And one of the things the doctor I spoke to said, he is like, "What do you do when you finish or get home at the office?" I'm like, "Do? Or I learned something. And he's like, "okay, what did you used to do? And I was like, "Well, I've always kind of done that. But I used to play video games when I was younger. And he goes tonight, go home and play some video games.

43:41

And that realization that I just wasn't looking after myself, there was no self-compassion, there was no care of my own wellbeing was such a vivid realization. And also I just felt so stupid that I almost just walked myself into this position knowing it was coming, or I should have seen it coming. But again, like we said at the start of the conversation, humans are really bad at doing things that are good for themselves. And so now, I just know now that if I ever feel like any of the things I felt or I feel overly stressed, I'm just really kind to myself. I'm like, I'm going to have a day off. I'm going to play some video games. But yeah, it wasn't a pleasant couple of months.

44:26

Why do you think that you weren't self-compassionate?

44:35

I really enjoy learning stuff. And I'd read all this nonsense about people. Well, I say nonsense. Learning has a compounding effect. The more you learn, the more you can learn, the better you get. It's really important. And I encourage people to have a learning and growth mindset, of course, but I read these a lot of stuff about the most successful people are the ones who learned 17 languages every evening. And before they went to bed and then slept two hours. And I convinced myself that I could make myself be that person thinking that it was who I wanted to be. And for a while I was able to do it. When you're young, you can get away with a lot at a certain age, it takes its toll. And I think also as thread was growing, the amount of head space it took was growing as well.

45:40

In the early days, I was all in thread, but I was just writing code and building stuff. I wasn't worried about my team of 40 people and the fundraising that was coming up, it just got a bit bigger and a bit more real. And so that side of things, the stress levels increased there. And in all, it's just all too much. So yeah, I think I was just pushing myself so much to be as good as possible, or be the best you can be, be the best version of yourself. Learn as much as you can and convincing myself that the only way to do that was by beating myself up.

46:15

Do you have an idol that you wish you didn't idolize?

46:22

I try not to idolize people. I mean that I wish didn't.

46:37

Not really. It's like, I'm a big fan of Sam Harris and a lot of what he says about lots of things actually. But I also find the way he talks about some things a bit, how put it confrontational and a bit trolling almost. So I found myself agreeing with what he says about, it's also wanting to argue with him. This is a bit of that, there, but I wouldn't say I idolize him nor do I. Yeah,

47:11

No, I guess I ask that question because I think there are often two types of people we tend to idolize and sometimes it's really difficult to pick between each one, I guess the classic is if there are so many people who idolize Bill Gates, I'm definitely one of them and that's so many good parts to bill gates that we can aspire to be. But then there's also other leaders throughout history like Lincoln, who personally, I kind of constantly pull myself towards. And if I feel myself reflecting on my ambition or thinking about how hard I can push myself, I often have to ask the question, who am I idolizing here? Am I idolizing Bill Gates? Or am I idolizing Lincoln? What is the right thing to do here? And it can be such a trap.

48:09

Yeah. I think that one of the risks or reasons I try not to idolize people is that they'll let you down. Nobody's perfect. Right? So if in your head you have this like, "Oh, I idolize this person. I will base all my decisions on what they would do and how they think about staff." They're going to have made mistakes and they're going to have some flaws. And I think the thing you touched on there is that it's okay to recognize what's really good about people and the things they do that make you like and you want to emulate, but that doesn't mean you have to idolize that person for everything they are. So picking and choosing the good bits or the bits you think are right, or learning from them. And then adapting them to your own way, I think is completely fine. But there's a risk that you can just fall into the cult of that person. And then you worry, then you start doing things maybe that you don't believe in as much as you should because they had a slightly different value than you.

49:26

When you first started Thread, what were you optimizing for personally? And has that changed?

49:41

That's a long time ago, 10 years now. At the very start, Kieran and I, so we sold Playfire and we talked about what we wanted to do next. And we both had an ambition to build something that reached a lot of people. So the problem with Playfire was ended up being for hardcore video gamers and the bigger Playfire got the less time Kieran and I spent play video games. We ended up building something that we weren't using. And so I wanted to build something that reached a lot of people, but also something that sold a problem that I had. And I couldn't dress myself 10 years ago. I literally liked that feeling when I left the house and looked in the mirror and thought, "Oh yeah, you look good." But that happened once every few months. And it was always the same shirt that someone once complimented me on.

50:29

And I was like, "It doesn't have to be like this." So I think my goal then was to solve a problem for myself that I think a lot of people have, but then on the kind of day-to-day work, what I wanted to do, I just wanted to build stuff and I still have that. But today I'm doing it in a different way. So I'm not writing code anymore. They don't let me in the code base anymore. That's what happens when you hire people who are better than you, right? But through my team, we create incredible things. And so I still get that buzz of when demo day happens and when people release stuff and someone sends around the Navy report where we've increased the number of likes on items by 5%, stuff like that, I still get the same buzz from that feeling that we've made something and made the difference to people's lives. So that hasn't changed. But how I go about it has changed.

51:27

Do you have a set of priorities when it comes to how you'd define meaningful work, if you were to kind of line them up and you were to put them into themes, how would you rank it? And what's up there with you as the most important parts to your work?

51:50

I think now because I'm a manager and a leader, the meaningful to me is enabling other people. So this is a bit of there's two answers to this. So if I put third to one side and what do I see as work to me, if I'm like, I want to write code and build something that's work. But I just love that. And it's easy for me to say that for me, working, building something is fun, and that's how I'd define the best thing I do. But when it comes to enabling people and building an environment where people can thrive and shine, that's how I think about everything I do now. So if I'm going to, we are talking about company strategy, whatever. Obviously we have to think about what will the company do? How will the company succeed? What will make us win? But I think first and foremost, what is going to get the best out of my team and give them immense satisfaction on a day to basis? So in a way, I guess I live my work through them now.

53:09

And must be it personal side to it too, because there's a danger there, isn't there. And I'm sure we've both experienced this, where there is nothing better than that feeling of someone else being empowered by you. There's nothing worse than someone feeling disempowered by you and you need a coping mechanism outside of that because the time inevitably comes.

53:40

Yeah. I think in a way, if I start a day's work and I have nothing to do, then I'm doing well because all I see myself doing now is removing friction and making things easier for others. I think the reason why that is actually really personal to me and really satisfies me, motivates me, is because in a way I can do a lot more. So if I can make a change, which allows a team of 20 engineers to do better work, that's just infinitely more powerful than building a line of code myself. Well, it's not infinitely it's 20 times more, but it feels like so much greater.

54:34

So it is a selfish thing still. It is a person. Yeah, of course I'm trying to enable everyone, but it's because I just get such a buzz out of it that, yeah. And going back to the early days of when I started programming, I think I was one of the few people that actually enjoyed the university group projects. Everyone else hated them. But that was the first time I was like, "Hey, we can actually build something bigger than what one of us can do." And so even then it was like, you obviously had people you had to drag along, but even then it was some of the parts are like, I've forgotten the phrase. Some of the parts are greater than or whatever. You know what I mean?

55:13

Yeah. It's funny how even in those days, there's a tell to the future. If you'd been the person in that class who just wanted to be in the corner and not engaged, it's highly unlikely that the situation since would've unfolded, but you don't necessarily notice that at the time it feels kind of silly. It's like, "Yeah, I like being involved in class." So what? Perfectly, it doesn't end up meaning a lot.

55:35

And looking back, I used to sell rhubarb at school. I took from the garden and went in and sold it and I wrote a card game, which I sold a shareware in school. And I didn't realize at the time that I was just doing that, because I really enjoyed the business side of it and making money. And yet it's kind of obvious when you think of course I'm going to end up running a business. But at the time I had no idea.

55:56

When's it going to be enough?

56:01

As in retirement day?

56:06

Yeah. Maybe retirement. Yeah. Or when will you be satisfied?

56:11

I'm satisfied now. So my drive and I enjoy what I do, I'm not like this person who's desperate to get to somewhere. I really just want to maximize my enjoyment of my life, what I do every day. And I'm lucky that I've managed to find something that gives me that. So the day that Thread is no more for whatever reason or I'm not part of the Thread. Thread will carry on long after I've left. I need to find something that will satisfy me. And I think I've had this going back to the story thing I've exercised, done this exercise many times where I've thought about what happens if Thread's not here. If tomorrow the company disappears, right? And I'd like study something. I want to do some maybe sociology or some philosophy stuff or stuff that interests me.

57:13

I'd write more code, play my video games. But there's a ton of things I want to, I used to write music. I want to write music again. I collect music. I want to do more of that. I want to do more cycling. If I had 20 more days in the week, I'd fill them. So it's not like I'd be short of things that I think would make me happy.

57:34

Is there I look back on my own journey and I can remember work before I started seeing a therapist and work after I started seeing a therapist. Is that the same for you?

57:45

Yeah. Big time. I could just remember life before therapy. One of the things that therapy did for me was that the thing we talked about being more objective about yourself, is given me loads of tools to do that. So in a way it's not just the coping with life. It actually people like, if you go to a therapist, if you are struggling. Fine, that's good. But you don't go to the gym when you're about to have a heart attack, you go to the gym to prevent yourself. So I think the things that therapy have given me are just ways of navigating just normal things in the world. And part of that's been able to really look into yourself step away and be objective and realize when things are getting tough and what you can do to then fix them. Because I firmly believe that sometimes you just can't do that yourself because like we said, humans are many different systems and many different pulls and emotions and it's really hard.

58:54

It's funny how therapy is just helping you make better. It's giving a system to be able to make decisions that are highly personal without too much emotion, but without self-loving and hating yourself. And then all of a sudden, if you can develop that skillset, it not only is good in the context of your therapy, but it's just really good for decision-making that involves you as the core participant.

59:26

Exactly. It's just more tools to get things done and to navigate the world. Going back to what you said about emotions and the human brain being a complex mix of different systems. It's so hard to work out what the right thing to do is at any point. There's a part of me that sometimes I finish work, it's like 5:00 and I just want to have a beer, but I know that if I have a beer, I'll have three, and then I'll have a bit of a hangover tomorrow. So I know it's not the right thing to do, but that moment I just want to do it. And then I think, well, what being kind to myself, actually, I could actually have a beer because I can relax then. And that's nice. And so it's important to do that and I realize why the pull is pulling me. And then I know that if I have too many I'll feel bad so I can control myself a bit more. And it's just that you see yourself as if you were a friend and you can, like you say, make better decisions.

01:00:20

That's a great way of thinking about it. Haven't thought about that before. See yourself as if you are your friend, because that all of a sudden does become a lot easier to visualize. I was trying to work out. Do I have that drink or not? I am I kind to myself, am I not? And even then it's like, oh God, yeah, hang on. I don't know. Because this is all contradicting itself. But then if it was a friend, it would be really quite quick to notice whether that friend needed some self-love in that moment or whether that friend needed her not have another beer. And it would actually be a pretty straight decision.

01:00:56

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But we start that thought process, but I should have a beer? I had too many beers last week and made a tip myself. So it's like you start that self-loathing almost, but you start the conversation from the wrong place. You start it from a judgmental reflecting, but not in a good way kind of perspective. Whereas yeah, like you say, you look at it from, as if you're a mate talking to someone, it becomes so much easier.

01:01:32

I think one of the things that I really, I keep to myself as we've gone through our conversation is this difference between the things that are within your control that you can handle, and recognizing the things that are outside of your control. And I think the tricky part here is that I think people really do want to do that. But if you are ambitious, you pull as much into your control as you possibly can at all points. How can you continue to be ambitious and have big dreams, whilst also maintaining a clear line between what you can and can't control?

01:02:20

And the two things are compatible, right? Because if I had the dream, I want to be an astronaut. There's no way like that unless I pay a ton of money. Now that I'd be able to do that, because it's like, I know that you have to be young, you have to be fitter than I. There'd probably be a path to get there. But I can't. That dream is like incompatible with my belief system that I can't control the things I need to get there. If I had bad eyesight, I wanted to be a pilot, I couldn't. There's just no way, you're not allowed kind of thing.

01:02:52

But if I have a dream of wanting to do something big, I'm like, "Okay, what can I do to get there? What are the small steps? What are the things that I can control?" And you're right. People with big dreams, try and pull more things into things they can control. And that's a great way of doing it. People that you do say people have hustle who determined to get stuff done. They find ways of changing the world so that their dreams can become reality. Whereas a lot of people come across an obstacle and they're like, "I'm stuck."

01:03:31

They're like, "I'm worried about this thing, but I don't know how to fix it." So I think when you said people do want to only worry about the things they could control at, I actually think a lot of people don't make that distinction well enough and they see genuine obstacles, the same as impossible things. So something will become difficult and they'll be like, "Oh, that's the same as the market create comedy crashing or whatever, or climate change and I'm hopeless again in this situation." Whereas when you make the distinction, you come across something difficult and you realize actually there are things in my control, things I can control to change this. Then it becomes less of an obstacle and I can get through it. So the two things are having big dreams is as long as your dream is realistic and you can change the world to some extent to help you get there, then it is fine.

01:04:29

And finally, how has becoming a father affected your relationship with work?

01:04:40

Honestly, not much. I know a lot of people are like, "Oh, it becomes less important." And having a child makes you focus on different things. And it does, I am immensely grateful for the ability to work from home, because I get to spend more time with him. If he's bedtime. I have lunch with him. I can nip out after this and say, hi and like it. That is great. That actually points to something, it's hard to disentangle the effects of the pandemic. And because Daisy got pregnant during the pandemic. He was born on the day, the original Freedom Day.

01:05:29

Oh really.

01:05:29

21st of June, they pushed back in the end. So the first few months of his life were locked down if the world was changing. So it's hard to know the differences in my life that are because of him and how I feel about the world and the pandemic. But I took an extended parental leave. I took four months off full-time and a couple of months part-time. And so I came back really refreshed, super energized and ready to go. And so in a way I'm like just, I feel very similar to, as I did a few years ago,

01:06:09

It must have felt, I can't imagine what that four months was like, because your personal life, as all of a sudden lit up with this brand new piece of sun in your house.

01:06:21

That's one way of putting it.

01:06:22

But on the other hand, your other child continues to live its life without you.

01:06:30

Yeah. Before I went on parental to leave, I started handing over my responsibilities and there's a really humbling thing and a realization that you're not that important. If I left Fed today, it would affect things, of course. It would go on a different path. It would survive. Fed would find another CTO. My team would have different managers, but they'd have managers and everyone would be okay. And yes, I bring something I think in a certain way. So I bring something to Fed which has helped to get where it is and I can contribute more in the future. And until I'm useless, I'm going to stay there. But it's a kind of humbling realization about removing yourself from something that's just been a huge part of your life for so long.

01:07:23

And then when you get back, everyone's like, "Oh hi, we're still here. Everything's fine." So yeah, it was nice to have that break and also quite affirming in a way that the company's going to be fine. And my team are actually really good and can do stuff without me. And probably I actually enjoyed that period where I wasn't on the case all the time. So yeah.

01:07:47

Sounds in an odd way, similar to sleeping on the floor and remembering what it's like to have a bed. Yeah.

01:07:55

Yeah. Except that first four months. It wasn't a great deal of sleeping at all. No.

01:08:01

No.

01:08:01

But now it's a lot better.

01:08:04

Thanks so much for this and your honesties and your authenticity. It's so difficult to replace [inaudible 01:08:22] lies. I've love this. Thank you.

01:08:23

Thanks Ben. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Cheers Ben.

01:08:28

Thanks man. Catch soon.

01:08:29

Yeah. Enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you.