A Digital Nomad - Albara Hakami

00:00

I definitely have a few principles that I always look at. And before I make any big decisions like moving, like signing something new, how would that decision affect those principles? I basically weigh the pros and cons or whether or not that makes sense. That's my main model. The second model, it's just basically, how much am I willing to learn from this in five years time? Am I going to look at myself and be like, "Hey, I learned a lot." It's not about the money. The money comes and goes. I mean, I'm still young, but if you look at people who are 60 years old, they sometimes probably were very rich. Sometimes they were probably very poor, it depends really. So, money is just a by-product of learning. And if you just focus and make sure that you continue learning the stuff that you should be learning and that's basically personal, I think that makes me happy and that helps make me come up with better decisions.

01:02

Why is it that you've never started two companies in the same industry before?

01:11

It's a good question. I definitely like to go deep on things, so that doesn't really align with that thought that I have. But fresh out of college, just like almost everyone fresh out of the womb, not knowing what to do, what I wanted, but I did know that I wanted to do my own thing. That's why I started two things at the same time. One, it was a cooking focused app for chefs. And then the other one is emotional intelligence platform, which is wildly different, but I had the time and I was able to explore more. So, I guess in the beginning, I wanted to explore more. I ended up moving to San Francisco and focusing only the emotional intelligence app that was like, we had different tools, et cetera. Four years later, I still loved the people that I worked with and everything, but I just didn't feel like its something I want to pursue going forward, but I definitely like the AI part of it.

02:17

So, that's where one of my mentors introduced me to my co-founders in that next company, they were building an automation, SMB platform for bill pay and finances. So, in a way it was similar, but it was different industry. So, it was AI and then how to use AI, applied AI and that was great. It helped me go deeper into AI, but definitely coming from a different background. If you watch intelligence social media, it was also a tricky transition, but also very interesting. One of my favorite things in the world is having a challenge and that was a good challenge, and being able to use the tools that I had before to go deeper.

03:08

Almost sounds like you're taking a step into the arena. And then you're seeing where the land lies, and you're picking up the I guess the things that you gravitate towards almost. It sounds like, I imagine it in my head as dots that you are moving towards and then once you reach it, there's still a connection to the next one, but it almost just moves on from it.

03:41

That's precisely. Well, very well said. I really think that everyone can be amazing at things that they love. And if you just flex stick to find the things that make you wake up in the morning, make you happy, you lose time doing them. It's something you should tell me like pursue more amazing. That's what his gravitation that you mentioned, that is for me, at least.

04:09

Is there any relationship to the way that you've moved locations too? Because I mean, you grew up in Saudi, then you're in Austria, San Francisco, then you're in Austin. Now you're in Nomad and you've also moved industries. What's the relationship there?

04:28

I love change. I think honestly as cliche, it sounds like, I believe in that saying, it's like, "Change is the only constant in life." And being comfortable with change is honestly something that I believe everyone should try and do. Life is long and things will keep changing. Once you start refusing changes, I think this is when you're like stopped growing because with growth change comes. So, I'm very open to change and I have very high response. That's a personal thing. I'm always thinking that what's the worst that could happen. And the answer is like, "Oh, nothing." So, I just didn't mind it. I'm pursuing what I think is best for me at this time in place. I did stay in San Francisco for eight, nine years. So, that was most of my 20s spend there. So, after a while, especially with the pandemic, everyone going digital Nomad and it just made sense to start doing that.

05:29

What are you motivated by?

05:33

Good question. I don't think it's one thing. Its multiple things, but I think for me, it's basically motivated by doing what I like to do or what I want to do. So, if this feels like it's right to me, I really want to do it and that just brings motivation to me. I know that sometimes that's not the best equation to grow. Sometimes you have to do things that you don't like to do. But if I look at the bigger picture, is this something that I'm going to be happy about in 20, 40, 60 years? Did I do that? Did I not do that? Is the thing basically that makes me or keeps me motivated and pushes me to change a bad day into a good day. If I had to do groundwork for a week that I don't like to do, I just look at the bigger picture, be happy about it and continue doing it. And now it's just something that you have to deal with.

06:37

Why do you think that change and that ability to follow your curiosity at low risk tolerance? Where does that come from? And has it changed at different points in your life? Have you always been this way or was there a moment where you became more that way or less that way?

07:05

It's a great question. So, I think for me, and I don't think it's unique here, so I don't think it's the only case, but I've always had it. I think it's the way that I was brought up. It's the way I see it is. Since I was a kid, I was curious in electronics and then I was playing with this stuff. And I also had going between a younger and older brothers, it's just always interesting to have this competition full of love and just trying to all do stuff together. So, I think it was just, I was lucky to have that upbringing, that motivated me to do this. However, I do see or I do have a lot of friends who did not have that in their upbringing, but they captured it during college or the first career and they became definitely more and more curious. So, I think it's just a skill that you capture at some point in your life. And if you like it, you just stick with it.

08:02

It seems like there's this contradiction in some ways between change and compound interest where both provide almost some of the most incredible parts of life, but they come from different ends that seem to contradict it's on the one hand, your curiosity and the amount of change that you can go through is so... It's one of the ones of life, you can experience so many different things. And we are as individuals, we're not one person. We don't have one necessarily one identity. We are so many different things. We could all pursue so many different jobs. So limiting ourselves to one thing and following our curiosity and our playfulness is one of the wonders of life.

08:53

But on the other hand, we didn't have this... It's really clear that compound interest in investing in things over a longer period of time going through the difficulties. We have a trough of sorrow that we all go through in order to achieve success, it never happens overnight. And there's a huge benefit to seeing things out over the long run, just being a cockroach and never giving up. It's like how do we marry those two together?

09:18

Yeah, that's amazing question. I got to be honest, I really don't have the answer for it because I think it's all about balance and everyone has their own balance and their different circumstances in life. And basically, it comes down to commitment and how much you want to commit to this thing and how much you don't want to commit to this thing. But I believe that once you stop learning, it's time for a change. It's one thing to know when to start, but it's the hardest skill. I think it's knowing when to stop, but I honestly believe it's just about balance. My friend Youssef if I understood his podcast here, actually.

09:58

And you mentioned that, yeah, it's basically looking at your past year on what you have learned and what you have not learned and evaluating this and that and I think that makes a lot of sense. I do it from time to time every quarter of the year with different overlooks. And I think it definitely helps a lot to see like, "Hey, am I growing in the areas that I want to grow? Am I doing the right things? Find the principles that they have and am I still sticking to them?" This is really helpful.

10:33

When you built Feelit. I mean, you were building Feelit from 2013 to 2018. So, it's a really decent period of time and it must have been quite the decision to no longer be a part of this and do something different, especially when it's a company that you've started yourself. How did the decision-making process come about? What happened? And I guess, I'm really interested to know A, what happened and B, how did you make that decision? What process did you go through?

11:11

For sure. Yeah. It's definitely one of the toughest decisions that I had to make, having friends that I called family. We moved continents together from Saudi Arabia all the way to San Francisco, working together and living together. So, you grow crazy, this is a family together. And the time came where I'm questioning whether or not this is something that is like why I continue doing, or is this something I'm just doing because I already committed to it or is this something I'm growing in, et cetera.

11:45

It's helped me to talk to a lot of people. So, finding people who have gone through this journey and they have different outcomes, whether they stuck or they left definitely helped a lot. And that's how we see life and just looking through reflection of other people. And I'm definitely happy where are things at right now in my life and where things at with my friends who worked on that project. So, overall it's just mainly just talking to people and being more open about it and had finding people who are like you, who's gone through the same experience.

12:22

How did you, in that process of talking to other people make sure their voice didn't internalize too much. I think this is such a challenge for so many people that we seek out advice and we should. But if we begin to completely internalize the advice of others, then I guess we lose the ability to make original decision making, which is so important if we need to follow our own inclinations. How did you strike the balance when you were talking to those people around you to make sure that you both took in the information that you needed, but also made the decision with clarity on your own accord?

13:07

It's an amazing question. It definitely took iterations. So, some people, I asked them for a round two of conversation and I'm talking to everyone, it's like a 3 to 4 hour hangout and towards a whole afternoon. So, asking more people questions makes me realize that I should have asked this question to that person and that gives you more insights. It just makes me smarter about the questions I should be asking. It was a few months process. It wasn't just I want to pull the trigger next week. I will talk to this person over the phone. Yes or no. All throughout that journey, actually, I learned so much about myself and about these people and their input actually helped me tremendously in my next journey with Roger.ai. It's their words to this day, I still have like quotes in my head from these conversations. It was a great journey. Now, I look back at it. But during that time it was definitely stressful. Yeah.

14:10

So yeah, it's so difficult. I'm trying to imagine myself in your situation. And I think, I would find that extra challenging. I think I'd find it extra challenging if it was my own company too, because it's something, it's not like, "Oh, what do you think about this job that I'm doing?" It's like you're bearing your soul and you're saying, "What do you think about this thing that I've built myself? Should I do it or not? Should I not do it or not?" That's just so terribly difficult.

14:38

It was, yeah. It's your baby, right? I mean, starting company, how it feels like a dream, just to attach to it. But at some point, today you got this disassociate between you and that person who works there basically, and look at it from a bigger picture.

14:56

How do you make sure that as you go along, your expectations aren't spiraling out of control to a point where it's maybe unhealthy. So, for example, it's almost like the hedonic treadmill. You are constantly having to go up and up and the more money we make, the more status we get, the greater our expectations are of the circumstances that surround us. And that desire for learning is really difficult to... there's that natural desire for learning that comes deep from within us. But then there's also this natural dissatisfaction or this FOMO or this drive to do something else, which I think starts to get closer to the hedonic treadmill. How do you differentiate between the two? And have you ever had that experience before?

15:49

I had experience before, I was called crazy a few times and I love it. It's all about testing the limits. And really, that us as humans, we're just like social species and the more, the environment you build around you, the healthier you become. You're basically going to go towards the average five people like 10 people that you meet. And you guys, you got to just focus on who you're spending time with. So, definitely I'm happy with the people that I built around me. I call them friends, I call them family, but all of them are mentors to me in some way or another. So, posting ideas out of these people helped me manage my expectations. I've got the crazy friends, I've got the conservative friends, I've got the ones in between. I got my own brain.

16:44

So, it's balancing the thought and expectations based on the environment and the smart people that I trust and build on me. I was lucky to meet great people throughout my college time. And in San Francisco, the city of founders, I guess, and being nomadic and having the freedom to be anywhere and seeking those friendships helps me a lot in managing my expectations. And I'm validating the expectations I have, they don't all have to agree with me. They don't all have to disagree with me. I don't take them as voting mechanism where like, "Oh, the majority says, yes. I should go with yes," but definitely their insights help me manage my expectations.

17:32

Are there any models or frameworks that you use when it comes to making a decision to... So for example, you said you might look 20 years in the future and figure out a regret. Will I regret this in 20 years time? And just imagining what that would be like and how that regret would feel and proactively imagining it and visualizing it. Is there anything else that you've done in those moments to help you make decisions?

18:02

Yeah. It's definitely like having the principles and what I want to achieve in life. And that thing changed from time to time. I definitely have, for example, loved my family growing up and throughout my life. But one of the reasons that I want to move to New York right now is because I want to be closer to them. That was not the case when I moved to San Francisco, because I had them around me. So it really changes as you grow, as you change, as you learn. But yeah, I definitely have a few principles that I always look at. And before I make any big decisions like, moving, starting something new, how would that decision affect those principles?

18:45

I basically weigh the pros and cons and whether or not that makes sense. That's my main model. The second model, I think it's just basically, how much am I going to willing learn from this in five years time? Am I going to look at myself and be like, "Hey, I learned a lot." It's not about the money, the money comes and goes. I mean, I'm still young, but if you look at people around six years older, sometimes probably were very rich, sometimes were probably very poor, it depends really. So, money is just a by-product of learning. And if you just focus and make sure that you continue learning the stuff that you should be learning and that's basically personal, I think that makes me happy and that helps make me at better positions.

19:30

The principles sound really important because if you are following your curiosity, you're naturally making changes and you need that earth and that root in order to tie it down. What are your principles and how did you find them?

19:51

Yeah. I mean, I can't share really all of them, but I think liability and family, one of the main ones. There's a child inside of me that always wants to play with stuff like crypto, for example, right now, is just something that I always interested in now. If I should do it, I should do it. But it's like, all right, calm yourself down. Is this something really should be learning? Is this going to affect you from your social life or your family life? How is this going to affect your future in five years? Is this something you want to be an expert at? Is this something you don't want to be an expert at? So yeah, definitely the child got to be tamed by some principles and I think everyone has to have some. I have different principles really.

20:34

That's fascinating way of phrasing it, that everyone needs to be tamed by their principles. And I think there's a lot of truth in that. We see that they're not always easy to follow especially if you have a passion, that passion often does need to be perhaps tamed in one way or another. It's a really interesting use of that word.

21:07

Yeah. And I'm passionate about music. I can never sit somewhere without playing music, listening to music, all that stuff and that's definitely a passion. If I spend time just learning how to be a musician and being in a band, I think I would love that. But when I ask myself, is this something that basically aligns with my principles? Each way the answer is no. When I compare it to tech for example, and the things that I really like doing in tech, because tech also give me that itch, that passion, but it definitely has, I guess for me at least way better outcome based on the principles that I have.

21:46

Has any of this ever changed? Is there been a time in your life where you've noticed a significant change in the way that you either follow your principles or follow your curiosity?

22:04

Yeah, for sure it did like mid 20s, early 20s. Luckily it was just that definitely busy with life and also running a company. It's definitely doesn't give you enough time to ground yourself and look at your principles and be like, "I should not be doing this. I should be doing that." So, there has been some times where I didn't pause and take a second and look at what I'm doing because I was too busy. But that also taught me in the future when I paused, I was like, "Hey, you need to pause from time to time and look at this." And that was one of the lessons, I guess, I learned by not following my principles.

22:47

We're all motivated by extrinsic and intrinsic motivations in some way, external motivations being status or the amount of money we make or need to make in order to put food on the table. Or you may have intrinsic motivations like you want to follow your curiosity, or you have a particular passion or an inclination towards something. How have you balanced the two?

23:21

Yeah, I can't say I'm the best as balancing it. I'm a victim of really always trying to focus more on my curiosity and what makes my brain and mind free and let it wander. I think that's something that I always prioritize, but obviously, being a software engineer, you have to look at progress and if I'm not making progress, it's a red flag for me. So it's been a battle between my heart and my brain, I guess, where it's like, "Hey, you should be doing this. You should not be doing this." But yeah, maybe I sound like a broken record, but I think it's just a matter of trying to pause and balance your career and progress based on the goals that you defined. And those goals sometimes change, but they rarely change. I guess it depends on the big events that's going on in life.

24:20

So, if it sounds like curiosity is your intrinsic motivation, then what's your external motivation? And do you think you're pulled by that in any way?

24:37

Give me an example maybe for an external motivation?

24:38

So, it could be that you want to be successful, and you've grown up in an environment where there wasn't a whole load of wiggle room like people weren't well off and actually being successful. And that could be the seniority of your job or the amount of money that you make is a great something you aspire to be because you didn't come from that background. It could be that you want to start a company because the idea of starting a company is the thing that you wanted. You almost sat there and were like, "Okay, I want to figure out some ideas to start a company," versus like you said, following your curiosity. It's almost like we all have these two different parts to us because naturally we live in a social system. And that social system tends to be the side that pulls the extrinsic motivations out of us because we want to fit in the hierarchy of our peers. And I think it's clear to me that curiosity is the thing that intrinsically motivates you and I wonder what the extrinsic part to it is.

25:54

That's an amazing question. Yeah. I think at the beginning of my career, it was mainly, "Hey, I want to have, and build a successful company." And the vision of successful company really varies from one person to another. My last journey, my company was acquired, so it's been acquired for a year and a half now almost. And to me, that was exciting. It's like, "Hey, it's one of those goals where it's like, this is a definition of our successful company," but also a shock to me, I was like, "Okay." That was one of the external motivations that I had. And now what's my next move? I got to spend time thinking about what do I not do next because like you mentioned, I think having internal, external motivations, they dance together. And then, looking at both for a bigger picture and smaller picture, the result in what becomes you.

26:50

So, I think that was interesting to me and just like, "Hey, do I do it again? Do I do something else? What's my move?" So, I guess, you could call it status or maybe that as my identity, as an external factor that I always hungry for. I'm lucky to not have any pressure from my family. Both my mom and dad are very supportive, my siblings are very supportive, so I don't have that, but I think it's definitely internal of what I want to achieve in life and what goals they want to achieve. So, I guess I just change that goal. Now, I'm going to pursue it again at some point. So, in the future, but it's just a bigger scale on how it's going to be.

27:46

There are so many people who wish that they had the type of curiosity that you do. I reflect my own life and I remember a time where I wasn't nearly as curious as I am now and I'm certainly still not quite as curious as you are. And I see it as such an amazing skill set to notice all of the things around you that are so evident and so clear that you can be curious about them and wonder, and I'm sure there are people who would love to know how they could better cultivate curiosity, how they could generate more of it in their own life and use it for good. How do you go about cultivating your curiosity? What investments do you make in order to double down on it?

28:40

I mean, I think it's just basically focusing more on one of your environment. Having more curious people around you, having people, for example, who read books or curious about even the stuff that you're not maybe interested in, but they have that skill. Let's say you don't like music, but you have a friend who's a drummer that really is very nerdy about drumming. This is like if you poke a start, and if you would just ask questions about that and have that person around you, that gives me that motivation of basically having that skill being cultivated. So I believe that environment, which is people like the things you do, your habits really, really play a big role in cultivating that skill. Yeah. I guess, it's just mainly the environments.

29:33

And you're right. Habits place such a big part in just our general life, because we're able to then with our habits do all of the other things cognitively that we couldn't do it if we didn't have a routine to some of our more normal behaviors. But taking things like curiosity and making them habits can be just so unbelievably powerful. Have you used habits in a particular way to help your working journey?

30:03

I have. So, I figure an example actually. So, last year when I moved to Austin. Growing up, I only played soccer. Well, football, but Americans call it soccer, so I called it soccer now, so it's-

30:20

Not allowed, but yeah.

30:23

So I've always played soccer, I moved to San Francisco, I lost that. The reason that I lost it is because not a lot of people play it. The weather doesn't help. It's very hard to get 12 minimum adults in one place at one time to play soccer in a city like San Francisco. So, I lost that habit and that affected my health in some ways. It's like, "All right. I'm not as active as I used to be." Gym is not my thing because I really like progress. I really want to see growth in the thing that I'm doing. Gym doesn't give me that. Maybe if I focus on how my muscles are growing, that would definitely help, but was not doing it for me. Running was another thing. It was also like I don't see progress. I'm running all the time.

31:08

So, I moved to Austin and Austin is the capital of martial arts. I've never done any form of martial arts, but my friends, the friends that I made there, once I moved from San Francisco are all obsessed with martial arts and they have that curiosity about martial arts. My Instagram feed changed because I just moved to Austin. There's ads of martial arts on jiu jitsu stuff, which was very funny for me. So, after six, eight months just being around these people, I was like, "All right. Maybe I should develop this habit of picking up a new hobby that really helps me grow and also helps my mentality and my physical health." So, I started slowly learning how to box. So, I just asked my friends, "Do you go boxing in the park? Would you mind just inviting me when you go?" He's a great guy. He is like, "Yeah, you should come. We do it this day and this day."

32:07

So, I slowly started going. I definitely didn't go the first few times it went, I was just like, "All right. This is good, this is good." So, I just blocked my calendar twice a week just to go boxing for an hour. And with time within four or five months, it just became something very engraved to me. If I don't, as I'm traveling, I'm nomadic. If I don't go boxing at least twice a week, my brain just doesn't feel right. It's just like, you should go, you should do it, you should go. And I think that's one of the habits that I built last year, that I'm very happy about and then all to my friends who just basically very motivated to do it by just basically practicing it every day.

32:47

It's crazy how linked it all is.

32:52

Yeah. It's their environment.

32:57

And there's just no escape. Our minds tells so much to our body and our body tells so much to our minds. And you could almost take that physical embodiment and question other parts to our working life, remote working, being a nomad. It must be such a challenge for you to recognize the pros and cons of being nomadic and enabling it to do your best work. Has it been a conscious choice?

33:34

Yes, it has. But I can mention it is difficult, especially with building a routine, because you're always in the move. So after a while, you start learning more and more stuff because you're doing it. You're doing this nomadic life, you learn more and more stuff. The beginning, it's not easy, but after a while like, "All right. I need to find a place that has this, this and this. I need to find a spot that has this and that." So, the first few months were not easy, but after a while, you definitely like because you did it for some time, you built that habit, you become just better at it. And I got to say the past six months, I've been nothing but amazing because I know what to look for, I know what I need. And once I do it, once I move to that spot, it's just right of a couple of days and I'm up and running. So, it was a challenge but definitely you learn a lot from it and you learn a lot about yourself as well.

34:26

What are your expectations for your working future five, 10 years out? And I think this is a particularly interesting question in your circumstance because the nature of your curiosity means that your advantage is being in the moment and experiencing that curiosity and following it. What are your expectations for your working future? Do you know what they are?

35:02

Yeah. Yes. I know. So I think personally, I maintain this lifestyle, having a place that I call home, but having the freedom of being anywhere anytime. That keeps me motivated honestly, and feed my curiosity, so I don't have to go crazy with other things. Definitely, that's something personally I think is great for me, but I see how it's not for everyone. Some people just work better at being in a very consistent environment, having the same routine, having the same office space and that motivates them, that's them and it's amazing. So, I really think the future is going to be more diverse for everyone than what it was like five years ago, which honestly makes me happy because I feel like this cubicle office style has got to die or at least got to go down a little bit because it's not for everyone. And to get the most out of everyone, you got to make sure that they have the right environment that they work in.

36:12

Thanks so much for breaking down your journey up until this point. I feel like the amount of passion and your ability to understand your own inclinations and curiosity is something that is really special and I've really enjoyed listening to it.

36:32

Thank you, man. It's so good to me and thanks for your time, really.