Combining your passion and your skill - Sophie Tomlinson

00:00

The better a job you do, in some ways, that tends to link to what your pay is and I think the more you could just focus on doing something you're really engaged with and really enjoy, the easier it becomes to do better work and therefore, to hopefully have some success in increasing your pay. Obviously, there are some aspects of choosing between industries and there are some places that pay more and that is a choice you have to make, but for me that's kind of how I have approached it really, is trying to do things I really love and then kind of leaving the rest to fall into place.

00:31

If you choose to study PPE at Oxford, you typically have an idea about maybe what you wanted to do. Did you know at that point?

00:43

Yeah, I really didn't and I think for me, part of the reason I chose that was because it was quite broad. Although, I've kind of moved into an area that isn't covered by any of those three components, so I'm not sure I did the best job of actually cover off all pathways.

01:00

But, yeah, for me, when I was choosing what I wanted to study, I kind of wanted to get away a little bit from what the pathway tends to be, which is you study one subject, like History or Maths or whatever. And I've always really had quite a broad range of interests so I was trying to capture that with my degree. Probably went into a job straight after university that fitted with what you typically expect from a kind of a PPE background, which is work in the public sector on a policy, and then it was more by my other interests outside of that, I ended up jumping to where I am now which is working in sport, in some sense far away from the politics sphere of things. So, yeah.

01:51

Wow.

01:53

Yeah. I'm not sure my degree choice was a natural lead in to where I am working. I think it was other things that got me to where I am now.

02:00

Yeah. Where did that seed first plant itself for you? By seed I mean that seed of sport. Was it something that was always there in the background, even when you were at Oxford, and even when you were in the public sector? Or was it something that developed later?

02:23

Yeah. So I guess the interest in sport has always been there. I've always been a huge football fan in particular. I've always loved a lot of other sports. I think the thing that was difficult when I was first trying to work out what I wanted to do was there weren't many people out there doing jobs in sports and data, or that I knew about. I think in the last maybe two or three years, in the UK certainly, it has become a much more public things. There's a lot more talk around football clubs using data scientists, and so I think people perhaps coming out of university now have a bit more knowledge of the field, but I just didn't know it really was a possibility.

03:02

And the way I kind of learned more about it was actually I was studying for a Masters in the evening after work, and one of the projects I chose to do was focusing on the use of data in football. I was trying to predict when different football players would peak in their career, and it was kind of through that I explored a bit more that this was a possibility.

03:28

And then in a lot of ways I got lucky in hearing through other people about the current place I'm working at and the fact that they were starting out in this area and they've been going for a couple of years, and through that kind of got a lead in. But yeah, it certainly wasn't something that I'd planned when I first started my career.

03:49

What happened? Did you go through the usual application process or did you find it through the connection?

03:56

Yeah, so I knew of it through a connection. The application process was quite a similar, I think, to other jobs. The normal set of stages that you go through. You certainly, for a data science job, with the usual take home exercise, the normal raft of interviews. So in that sense, it was very similar to any other job.

04:16

I think I kind of luckily had that advantage from having spent some time during my studies trying to work in that area and that helped to transition and pivot in industries, because I think that can be something that's quite intimidating at first, when you perhaps feel like you don't have the experience and the background in certain areas, trying to just talk through things in an interview or even to know how well you'll be able do your job when you get there. So I think that's something that really kind of helped me out in that sense.

04:44

Must have been tricky, too, because you almost have this sunk cost. It's like you've invested four years of your life into public sector work. Your pay would have gone up during that period, your skills would have developed around certain areas, and then it's like, do you really wipe the slate clean and do the thing that I could have done straight out of uni?

05:07

Yeah, definitely. It probably was a bit of a risk moving across and I guess at the time I don't think I thought of it as that too much, and now looking back, I'm kind of more aware of the fact that it was a bit of a...

05:19

It's good you didn't think about it at the time yeah?

05:22

Yeah. And it definitely, in some sense, was kind of a bit of wiping the slate clean, just in the sense that, as you say, you've been working somewhere for a few years, maybe you get promoted, you start gaining additional responsibility and then that expectation doesn't necessarily always carry across immediately when you jump across to a different context.

05:48

I think a thing I've found is that, for me personally, I think it's a huge benefit to have a broader kind of background, or like lots of different experience in working with different types of people in your job. So, even though in the short term, it perhaps felt like a bit of a setback, I think the long term benefit of having worked in different places, as I say, has definitely helped me since then.

06:11

That's interesting that the job that you do now, that you went into then, did it even exist fully when you graduated? I mean, it must have been on the real periphery if it did.

06:26

Yeah, I don't think the kind of job that I'm doing now is the same around, as you say. A few years ago. When I was graduating, it's certainly an area where there's a lot more opportunities in the sector now than there were five years ago, even. I think you can really see it growing in terms of people working at Sports Clubs. The number of positions that are available, probably also the salary and the pay available... in those positions it's gone up quite considerably.

06:57

I think the market's basically following the US where using data in sport is really popular in American football and baseball. If you've seen the film Moneyball... so I think the UK market is kind of just following that trend, but it's definitely ten, fifteen years behind in terms of the number of positions that are available. I think that's really changed in the last year or two.

07:19

It sounds like there are two things in your own journey that stand out as big pillars of your own decision making. There's data and there's sport. Why is it those two pillars that are so clear to you, and have they always been that clear?

07:37

Yeah, it's an interesting question. I think I've talked about the sport element of it quite a bit. Even on the data side, though, there was a bit of a... not necessarily as big of a pivot, but definitely a progression for me. I had done quite a lot of stats and statistics at University, through the economics side of things, but certainly less so the coding and the more technical aspects of what I do today. I think, for me, it was certain exploration the first few years of my career in terms of finding out things I really enjoyed doing that I hadn't come across before. I hadn't done too much coding in my University course. I like to think that's probably a big component of University courses now, but it wasn't when I was coming through, and it was something that I just found in my first few roles, and from working with the people in the first few teams I was part of, that I really enjoyed the kind of problem solving and the creativity of coding and the kind of different things it offered that you could do.

08:37

So, again, I think the kind of data aspect for me was something that I picked up as I went along rather than being something that I had clear in my mind at the beginning was always going to be a big part of what I did.

08:47

So it wasn't that when you left Oxford, you knew that you wanted to combine data and sport. It's almost like it's kind of come out as you've gone through experience, through the public service, in some way.

09:01

Yeah, definitely. Definitely, I think so.

09:06

How has your definition of doing your best work changed over that period of time and, especially between working in the public sector and working at a startup? How have you had to, if you have, adapt your own definition of doing your best work in each circumstance?

09:26

Yeah. It's a good question because I think your understanding of what that means just changes over time and hopefully gets better. But for me, it was a big shift and move from a large organisation to, as you say, what was very much a startup environment, and the big thing I think I picked up from that was, for me it's really important to have quite a lot of variety and stretch in what I do, and that's very much so possible sometimes in small organisations than it is in larger ones. So, I think in a larger organisation, it's much more likely that you'll be in a very specialised role where you're not put in a box, but doing very much so one type of thing. And that's obviously really great if you're looking to master a certain skillset.

10:14

For me, a big thing I found in the transition was the opportunity to do and get involved in a lot broader range of things in the startup environment, and for me, a key part of doing your best work is having that stretch and having that engagement with what you're doing. And I think that the environment that I moved to, I found that I really enjoyed that variety in what I could do, getting involved in, for example, bits of the marketing work that we do, doing a lot more writing that I perhaps have done in my pervious roles, and that, for me, kept me learning and therefore kept me engaged to keep doing what I think is on that trend of going towards your best work.

10:54

You must have a clearer insight than a lot of people when it comes to understanding the environment that you work in, because you've seen extreme ends of that spectrum. How do you go about now, today, figuring out whether you're in the right environment or not? How do you go through that process? And I guess that doing your best work is a combination of your work that you do, but also where it meets the wider environment that you're a part of. How do you go about assessing that environment part?

11:31

A key part for me is trying to work out whether what you're doing has some impact on some end goal or end outcome, and I think if you're going about your day to day you can kind of get your head down and just keep going through the same cycle and not necessarily having the time to kind of get your head up and look around and see what the actual impact you're having is. So I think, for me, that's something that I've tried to continue doing day to day, because, as you say, it can be quite difficult, if you're working in certain environments, to get that perspective. And so that's something that I try to do quite regularly.

12:12

Has following your passion in any way diminished it?

12:24

Not yet, is my answer.

12:25

Yeah.

12:25

Not yet. It definitely has reduced the amount of time I spend talking about Fantasy Football around the pub, but apart from that...

12:34

Damn.

12:34

That's about it, I think. So yeah, we'll have to see in another year or two whether that changes.

12:41

Yeah. So that spark is still there. Is it still there for the data side of it?

12:48

Yeah, definitely. I think my role has changed over the last couple of years, or evolved as things normally do when you've been somewhere for a while. I probably spend more time on other types of activity, less coding, more strategic work, and a little bit more management. I think for me it's always really interesting that I always get a lot of energy when I go back to doing coding or analysis types of work, so I try to keep a kind of balance in my weeks between those different types of activity. I think, as well, I certainly find that your brain struggles to keep doing the same type of thing for even what we'd normally class as a working day of eight hours or so. So, I think mixing up the types of things that I'm doing helps me kind of stay energised through the week as far as possible.

13:42

So definitely I don't find at all that my passion for the data side of things has gone anywhere. I think, in some ways, mixing it up keeps that fresh.

13:50

You said that you reflect on your energy at times, and what brings that energy up and what brings it down. Do you do that consciously or do you do that unconsciously?

14:05

I'm not sure it is too conscious, but I think I benefit so from working in an environment where we're certainly alive to that happening and certainly over the last two years, obviously, it's been difficult for a lot of people. We currently have a normal policy of not having meetings on Wednesdays, for example, just to allow people that space to think about things more deeply and kind of focus on what matters to them, and what they need to get done for that week. I certainly find that that's a super useful midpoint in the week, because you kind of go into your Wednesday, hopefully get a lot done, and then after that can kind of reassess where you are in your week and what you need to do in the remaining two days.

14:48

But also, kind of weigh what your energy levels are in respect to certain different tasks, but also for me it means, as I said before, I get a lot of energy from doing the kind of core of my job, which is analysis and data work and that Wednesday of getting, normally, a good long stretch just to focus on that without meetings really helps.

15:05

When you're evaluating or trying to construct your idea of what your best work is, perhaps most often you have someone's passion, the thing that they love the process of, that they engage with. Then there's the kind of pay, the kind of standard bits that someone needs. And then there's the more broad ambition. There's the difference that you're making in the world. And typically, it tends to fall into those three buckets. How do you weight them on a personal level? Would you fit one above the other? How would you calculate it?

15:49

Yeah. I think this isn't going to be a neat answer but in some ways, I think the first of those two, I personally would struggle to weight them against each other because, for me, obviously it doesn't perfectly work like this, but the better a job you do, in some ways that tends to link to what your pay is, and I think the more you can just focus on doing something you're really engaged with and really enjoy, the easier it becomes to do better work and therefore to hopefully have some success in increasing your pay.

16:25

Obviously there is some aspects of choosing between industries and there are some places that pay more and that is a trade up to make, but for me, that's kind of how I've approached it, really, is trying to do things that I really love and then leaving the rest to fall into place.

16:40

So, yeah, sorry for not picking between the three in any neat way but that's kind of how I think about it and approach it when I'm trying to make those kind of decisions, because it is hard.

16:50

And as a data scientist, do you think that there's a way that you look at finding work and pursuing work that's in any way more analytical than anyone else?

17:12

I don't think so, necessarily. I'm not sure we have any secret tips.

17:21

Damn.

17:22

Sorry for not revealing some secret sauce there.

17:24

Yeah. That's funny, though, because in so many other walks of life, perhaps someone who has that type of way of constructing thoughts and working through a problem would rely on data, perhaps, or objective information in order to make that decision. But it almost sounds like, actually, in this case, it's really difficult to do it. I wonder if there's any kind of data points that you've used in the past that have helped you make this decision.

17:57

Yeah, I think it's a fair question. I think the difficulty... and maybe this is influenced by the kind of sector I'm working in it, but I think it can be easier to benchmark things, certainly, when you're kind of working in a more established industry and in larger companies because you can do things like comparing what salary offers are, and get an expectation of what the typical demands of a job are. I think that's a lot harder sometimes when you're interested in working for smaller companies. I think you have to, therefore... leaning back on what I was saying before, I think it's harder to get hard data points and you have to rely on getting your good understanding from the people already working there of what it's like to work at that company, and also trying to really use the interview process to get information that you need, because I think it's a lot harder to get standardized information, data points, that you might do from working at a bigger place.

18:58

It's wonderful that you've found something that's not immediately obvious to a lot of people but that fits your skillset really closely, and that's in part because it's come out of the woodwork at, I guess, a later stage, and it's become popular. If you look back, are there any things that you did, especially when you were in the public sector, that kind of left you open to that possibility, that meant that you could go down... and I guess, is there any advice that you would give to someone who was going through that process, where there is something out there that really aligns with their own personal interests, but it just hasn't quite ticked off yet and it's going to happen in four years' time? How does someone leave themselves open there and make sure that the door's open when the time comes?

19:51

Yeah. It's a really interesting one. I think there are two main things. I think one is trying to make conscious decisions to broaden your skillset in areas that might be relevant, trying to get a broader range of experience or start developing in ways that will be useful down the line.

20:11

I think the second one is, a lot of people I know that have subsequently got jobs in, for example, sporting industries, just allow themselves to spend a lot of time on the things they're interested in at the weekends. Just writing about it, writing just about what they're interested in, writing blog posts, putting together little examples, just, in that case, I think probably to share with like minded people and get a conversation going and, as I say, I think that does two things.

20:40

One is it broadens the noise in that space, so in some ways, you are perhaps helping to create that space in the industry for people like you to do that job in future. But secondly, obviously, you're also putting your name out there and producing a portfolio of stuff that you can then go to someone in future and say, look. I've had some great ideas about this already and here's some examples of what I can do that are going to be really relevant.

21:07

So, I think in two ways that can really help you.

21:11

I've loved talking. Thanks so much for sharing your story, Sophie.