Harvard to Google to CEO - Ben Marcilhacy

00:00

Reflecting or trying to think about every time you've been ... You felt every time you've been punched in the guts by something you've tried that didn't work, and understand that was it you, or was it the circumstances? And if it was the circumstances, well, then try again. If it's you, is it something that you generally think you can get better at? And if you don't, maybe probably look for another opportunity.

00:26

How come you were drawn to those small companies at Google?

00:29

Yeah, I think it's, generally I always thought of myself as it was always obvious that I would work with small, medium businesses. I think there's something to say about people who take a risk, people who want to do something differently. And I think I'm always trying to get my coffee at the small guy, not at Starbucks, because I think this person cares a bit more about that coffee. And I think that probably the result of a journey that made them either go the hard way or also in many cases because they just simply don't have a choice and they don't have any opportunity and do it the hard way.

01:13

Sounds funny you're saying that whilst you're working at Google.

01:15

Yes. But I think it was almost like ... I almost stumbled upon Google. And I think it was just an opportunity that was put in front of me. And I was like, "You know what? It would be very, very stupid not to take it." But I didn't necessarily see myself as a big company guy. And then you are 21-year-old, you start at Google. And for five years it was incredible. I worked with absolutely amazing people. But I would say, yeah, it was a bit more of an opportunity that came in front of me rather than me actively trying to get into the company.

01:48

How did you stumble on it? I'm sure there are many people who are listening who would love to stumble into Google somehow.

01:55

Yeah, but I think you're right. It's funny to say that, but in 2011, the Paris office was pretty small and it was just not something you would consider like ... It wasn't really a company that you knew about in 2011, in terms of like, hey, I want to go work there because it was a search engine. So sure, maybe some people are selling some ads, but that's pretty much it. People didn't know at the time or very little, very few people knew that YouTube was part of Google and so on and so forth. It was just you didn't really imagine that Google even had people in Paris.

02:25

And then met the team because one of my friends was interned there, and then joined the company full-time and told me, "There's something special going on here. So you might as well come and check it out," which I did. And I was very pleased as I interviewed with them and met the people. Also, the caliber of people who were there, like yeah, that's probably a very good place to get started.

02:51

Yeah. What brought you to the end of your Google journey?

02:54

I think so, first of all, I moved to London with Google, which I'm very grateful for. And I think five years was kind of the end of a cycle. So I personally got lucky to grow a bit in the company, take different roles. And I think I felt like I was a bit removed from the execution. And that's probably why I wanted to get back to, or at least to position myself to be a bit more in execution mode rather than just a strategic thinker.

03:26

What were the key things that you learned at Google about doing your best work and what it means to you?

03:34

It's probably not to be afraid and just to think and go for the big shot and to go for, as they call it internally, the moonshot. I think there's something to say as well. I was very, got to spend a lot of time in the US at Google. And I think it's ... I would say that the US mentality is something that I really, really, really embraced and helped me to do my best work, because I think it's just you have this unique mindset where you shouldn't be afraid by default, which I think sometimes in Europe, at least in France, it's the dominant mindset. Whereas just go for it, shoot their shot. And do you know what? If they fail, they see it as an extremely valuable, even bankable experience that they can resell later and they have way less fear to just come across as like, "Oh, he's a failed founder."

04:31

I feel like a failed founder in the UK, for instance, it's a bit more or it's a bit of a stigma, whereas in the US it's more of a badge of pride almost. So yeah, I shot my shot and I'm going to shoot it again.

04:43

Was that not something that came naturally to you when you were younger?

04:50

I think it did. I spent a bit of time in the US before Google as well as part of my studies, started ... I mean's started a business is a big word but started a little side gig to pay the bills and so on. So it's not that I would do it decently naturally, but I think it's just, yeah, that mindset. And I think what I learned on Google is just the scope or the size of the opportunity that you should tackle should be just gigantic, and that you shouldn't be afraid of that.

05:21

I think that's something that a lot of people struggle with. How do you figure out a project that's big enough that it scares you, but that is small enough that it's practical in some way?

05:35

I think you're exactly right. And I think I make it sound like I have it figured out. I absolutely do not have it figured out. And I think it's exactly as you said, a constant pendulum between I want to tackle something huge, but then it's like trying to boil the ocean. So I think it's really trying to, as well. That's the conversation that we have with my co-founder at Timworks every day. It's like, how do we have this gigantic role to change the way every accounting firm in the world interact with their clients? But also where do we start? How do we start? What does the first version of the product look like, and who's our core targets, our clients?

06:13

And I think it's all about not losing the big vision or not losing sight of the big vision, but on the other end, being extremely focused on the steps that you're taking right now that takes you to the next step and so on and so forth.

06:26

How do you know if you are the type of person who is right for one of those really huge projects?

06:34

I guess you can't know until you've tried. And the whole point is about getting to try. And I think it's all about that. It's about finding as well where you think you could be relevant and knowing yourself well enough that if you are going to shoot your shot, you should shoot your shot in something where you think you have chances to succeed. I know for a fact that there are several industries, problems, type of companies that I would be absolutely awful at. And so I'm trying to stay away from it, because that's just not going to be me.

07:08

How do you develop the amount of self-awareness if you know that there are those companies that you definitely wouldn't be right at and you know that there are these projects that are the ones that are for you? How have you developed that amount of self-awareness so you can make those decisions?

07:25

I think it's reflecting or trying to think about every time you've been ... you felt every time you've been punched in the guts by something you've tried that didn't work, and understand that was it you or was it the circumstances? And if it was the circumstances, well, then try again. If it's you, is it something that you generally think you can get better at? And if you don't, maybe probably look for another opportunity, or at least if you're really set on that opportunity, then find someone who can really complement the areas of your skillset that you're lacking in, or someone that can correct you in some ways on where you're failing and someone who can also benefit from your strengths and your spikes. I think that's kind of how I've approached it, but yeah.

08:18

How did you approach it with Timworks? And when you were figuring out how to balance the strengths of that founding team, how did you go about it?

08:31

Yeah, and I think it's very core to as well how're approaching recruiting on the tech side. I think we're saying internally, we're like, "We're not looking for developers. We're looking for engineers." And we almost systematically write engineer with a capital E. And I think for us, it means that what we put behind that word, I think first is creativity. And I think it's very ... We really see engineering as a creative process. And I think the whole tech team is really organized that way in the sense that we know about your flow. We put team meetings early, or as early as presumably in the morning, so that then you have the whole day to do your thing. At least we try to be very conscious with Slack and set up a specific time at all.

09:21

And so I think really what this means is like from the get go, I knew that I wouldn't be the best to just even have the skills or the technical abilities to go to an engineer and say, "Hey, can you build this this way?" And so really, because I just simply wouldn't be good at it, because I know myself well enough. So essentially the whole team, and it goes beyond as well how we build our teams and not just the tech team. But it's like, hey, I think really what our users are after is this and that. And I was envisioning that from the product, you should be able to do things like that.

10:02

And that's obviously everything I try to do in the morning, that, get a bit more specific but read the processes. And at this point there is a conversation which is also very important for me and for my co-founder, which is how do you extract the best thoughts in the group? So whether you are doing a meeting or a Zoom call and how do you make sure that everyone has expressed their words and that they've been able to almost negotiate on how to build?

10:28

And then I think only after that it's where I remove myself from the process and essentially where it's like, "Look, the engineers know the problem we're trying to solve, we've discussed a bit on the budget we have for that feature and so on and so forth. Now you know what? You go and build it your way. You are the creative one. You're the expert." And I think it's really that sense of where are our limits and how do we make sure that we bring people who are going to be able to fill the gaps in the limits that we have.

11:03

Almost sounds like one of the gifts of early stage companies that you can spend more time figuring out whereabouts Eve fit in that jigsaw puzzle. As you spoke, I was trying to imagine you doing that same thing at Google, and wondering whether that would've been possible. Could you have picked that project based off your own strength, or did it take you starting a company to do that?

11:25

I've been very lucky that I got to also like be very decisive to some extent, or to really be able to steer my time at Google in directions that I wanted. I had also some great managers, but ultimately there's only so much that you can steer and almost a master of your destiny, I think, and that's what's really for me some of, and the urge as well to move and do something else, which was at some point I think some personalities will always be drawn to calling the shots themselves. And there's not really any other or anything else that I'd be able to do.

12:10

Can I dive in something you said earlier? You said it's really important to be able to be punched in the gut. What did you mean by that?

12:20

I think it's just like you can teach yourself stuff or you can try to learn, but I think I have a big view that a lot of things in life, or a lot of things that are meaningful in term of learning or achievements are made out of necessity. A good example is you're never going to write that paper for university if there's no deadline. And that deadline essentially creates the need for you to go to work. And I think generally, if you don't have a forcing factor, if you don't have anything that just confronts you, you're never going to essentially reach that extra level, that extra ... You're just going to settle for something where you haven't given your full potential. I think it's very true.

13:12

If you try to exercise and go to the gym, great. If you try to exercise and go to the gym with someone shouting on your back, you're just going to run 30% faster. And I think it's all about what's interesting with the idea of getting punched in the gut is like, you almost need to find ways to get that reality coating in on you, or that reality to just slap you in the face and for you to realize that, "Hey, okay, I need to be 20% better," or, "I need to be X better on this."

13:42

And some people call that failures. I think it's a too big of a word for just some smaller realization that you can be better. But I think that's very important. And I think every time you just miss a sales pitch, every time a candidate picks another company, every time your girlfriend tells you, "Hey, you haven't really been here for me this weekend." So just always that it'll punch you in the guts, I tell you, yeah, I think that's right. I need to be better at this and I need to be better at this. And I think that's that forcing mechanism or that forcing factor that just I think for me was always the way to just realize that, yeah, I need to step up.

14:22

It sounds like there are artificial forcing factors that in some ways you might want to build more of in your life to push you, like the great example of your personal trainer. Have you made conscious decisions to try and create those kind of artificial forcing factors? And if so, what have they been?

14:43

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's essential. I think it goes from every single ... in every single areas of my life. I think my co-founder, he's got a very, very special mind, very, very skilled engineer, call each other's bluff and we call each other's BS when it needs to be. And I'm very grateful that he doesn't hold back on me and I'd say the same about me. I think I have when it comes to Timworks as well some investors that are great to call as well, to get a bit of a kick in the butt and to get the blood flowing. And I think it's a very good thing to have as well.

15:27

I think as well in my personal life. In my personal life I try to surround myself with people who are not always going to be, "Oh Ben, this is amazing. Oh Ben, that's great." There's some people who are like, "Hey, you're doing okay, but I think there's a bit more in you that you can go for." And whether it's a professor from when I did my MBA in the US, or even some friends, I think it's always a good thing to do. And I think it's important to have [inaudible 00:15:58], it's important to have support. But I think by far it's equally as important, if not more, to have people who just [inaudible 00:16:05] in the best.

16:06

How has your own definition of doing your best work changed over time right from the Google days to now?

16:14

One of the key changes, one of the key realization is that the best work and specifically for me the best work is not necessarily the most visible. And I think you need to ... At the beginning, you're probably drawn into doing stuff that's very visible that has a very, very, very tangible output, but something that you can show. And I think ultimately what you realize is that a lot of those big achievements or the things you've done in your care are not necessary stuff that you can show to people, but are going to be things that if they look for it, if they ask around, that's going to come across. And I think there are several things there are for me very important. And that's probably also a function of how my care has evolved and how I got into managing people either in my previous job or now at Timworks.

17:12

And I think really what's doing my best work now is essentially putting my teams on [inaudible 00:17:19] and making sure that they're doing their best work, that they're very pumped to be doing their best work and that they show up in the morning super happy and that they leave work being very pumped to come back the next day. And I think really that's how I think it has mostly evolved. It's really now more and more, and I think as Timworks will grow, it's going to be even more to just doing my best work is making sure that the people in the team are doing their best work.

17:51

How does someone resist the temptation to follow the bright lights in that moment? If doing your best work is those hidden projects, those ones that are slightly lower key, how does someone stop themselves rushing towards that kind of more short term, bright light idea, and recognizing the longer term opportunities that they could be working on?

18:14

It's not always easy. And I think sometime you just want to go for a quick shot or the quick win. And that's also stuff I do because sometime it's very tactical and it's actually very smart to do the small things, getting a little push here to get a metric look a bit better in the short term, I think can really help. But I think it's just all a trade off that you're making. And I think it's really about taking the time to reflect and taking the time to just take a step back and be like, "Okay. What are we trying to do here in 3, 6, 12 months? And what's the most useful thing?"

18:50

And it's something that, to be very transparent, because you're like, "I'm not even the best at." And I think it's something again that my co-founder secures that he's really helping with, and we're getting better at that to think. But yeah, I think it's all about you trying to find and taking the time to just lift your head up and try to see the broader horizon and not just looking at your feet.

19:15

How do you balance your own pursuit of doing your best work whilst also recognizing the impact that that's having on the world around you? The phrase your best work implies an individualistic definition of how you're enjoying work. How do you balance both your own personal pursuit of achieving your own ambitions whilst also recognizing the kind of needs of others around you?

19:50

Look, I think if you're running a company or if you're running a team, you are eating last. So I think you come last and so I think it's ...

20:00

Eating glass, you'll come last. I love it.

20:02

But there's another way. It's funny, I'm still doing the payroll manually, because we're still a small team. And even though [inaudible 00:20:10], I'm always going to pay myself last because if the accounts gets blocked, is that mindset, it's like you come second, you have people who are making a huge gamble on you, your company. They have a huge cost of opportunity because if you're hiring good people, they could be working at Google, Stripe, whatever, and they've decided to share a view. And I think that's the most important thing to keep in mind.

20:43

I think to that extent, you need to do your work, you need to deliver for your clients. And for them as well. They need to see as well, day in, day out that you are punching and that you're doing everything you can to make that commitment or to make that bet or that gamble they made on you worse or something. But I think you really have to try to be as selfless as you can. And your people are always going to come first.

21:10

And where does happiness come into the picture for you?

21:12

It's when I have people from my former company. So the company I worked with after my MBA, after Google, after my MBA and some of them said, yeah, I had to let go as well because we were structuring the team and they're asking me now if and when they can come and work with Timworks and work with me again. And I'm like, "That's what I live for." It just brings so much happiness because you're like, look, that means that you'd be very happy. You'd be very pumped to come every morning and do your best work with us. And it's very ... And I know you're very skilled and I've worked with you. It's a no brainer. And I think that makes you very happy.

21:58

When I get an unprompted message from one of our clients who's like, "Man, your product it's just great and so on, and you must get that a lot," that's worth all the punch in the gut. Everything you got wrong, every investor who told you no, every employee who was or every potential hire who was like, "I'm going to pick another company," every client who said, "This product's not for me," that just goes away with when you have someone in your team who's super happy, someone who wants to join your team or plan, who tells you this product it's just, that's changed the way they work.

22:33

Ben, thanks so much for sharing your story. That's been great.