Cultures, courage and candour - Viviana Lotitio

00:00

I started to attend some online webinars where product managers of digital companies were speaking at. So first of all, I was messaging them straight after the webinar and during the webinar, I was asking question like in a chat. So they couldn't see my face, all you could see my name and question. And I was asking a lot of questions because I was like, okay, I want them to see my name. Then after, I send them a message straight after the webinar talking a little bit more about the webinar saying, "I really enjoyed the topic." Asking something like, "Where did you learn a specific concept or how do you apply a specific concept in your organization? Because currently my organization, we do things differently." And I would mention, "I'm looking to switch between hardware and digital product. What are the things you think are most valuable to know if I were to make this transition?" And everyone was really, really open honestly, to chat about this. So it wasn't difficult.

01:11

When did you first start to formulate your own opinion of the type of culture that you wanted around you?

01:20

So, I come from Italy, a culture that values the permanent job. So as soon as you find a job that's going to give you like a permanent contract, you take it for life. So that's it. It doesn't matter the growth. It doesn't matter if you're happy with your job. It doesn't matter if your colleagues are fine. All of those things do not matter because what matters is having security. I moved to the UK and I started to work in a big organization. I quite enjoyed going into the office, meeting colleagues, making friends, talking to people. And I realized that by building connection within my team and or the department, we were able to do a better job altogether. But often this is not one of the primary goal over department of senior management. And after like three years of working in the same company, I realized that, okay, I'm spending most of my day at work with certain people and I really need to be happy in the workplace.

02:42

Otherwise, I'm going to get home, be frustrated, not do anything else of my life and just be miserable. So I think it happened a year ago in my journey towards becoming a product manager, understanding what I want to do of my life and of my career. And I was like, okay, I want to change job, but I want to change for better. Which means of course, everything else that people consider so money, position, career growth, but I also want to be happy. I want to be able to go out for a drink with my colleagues or find friends or be really comfortable. Like if I've got like the plumber coming at home, I shouldn't be afraid to tell my manager, "I'm going to take one hour break because I've got this thing to do." And that's really important for me.

03:38

I strongly believe that if you are relaxed, flexible, happy, and chilled, we can be way more productive than just being under dictatorship at work. So I think this happened one year ago, I had to work hard. I had to work hard, deliver, deliver, deliver, but that's not all I think when you are in a workplace,

04:08

It's funny because I think that the perception of someone from Spain is this siesta, it's having fun. It's not like doing a job that you don't like, instead it's almost this kind of natural dance in your life between work and play and leisure. But it sounds like it's not like that in some way.

04:35

Well, you are right because, the difference is that when we are at work in Italy, we work. But then after, the social life is really strong. And the things that you can do and the way you enjoy life after work is different than here. That's why it becomes even more important here because the weather is really different, the food is very different. So, we are seeking that part, that side of life, that in UK is a bit more difficult to have, but still we want to have it. And I can find it in the workplace with my colleagues, with my managers and being able to, okay, we are not just colleagues. Let's be more than that, but not like close friends respecting the boundaries is really important. So understanding what the other person wants and can give it's really important, but still, we can enjoy ourselves and the time that we spend together and we can talk about other things that are not just work all the time.

05:42

How do you know when you're in a culture that's wrong for you?

05:48

Good question. I think you need to allow yourself sometime to understand, especially now that we don't work from the office every day. Before, it was easier for me to understand the culture because I was working from the office every day, meeting my colleagues every day, making decisions with the business every day. So the dynamics were a bit different and the timing was faster. Now is a bit slower, everything changed. So we meet once or twice a week if we are lucky. It really depends on the work, I think. What happened to me in the past was that I was working as an engineer, robotic engineer. And what the company was promoting was yes, you can be self-driven, you can make decision, you can be whatever you feel it's right for the product but then in reality, the situation was very different.

07:00

It took a long time to make decision. I needed approval from a lot of people before making something really small. It was a struggle every time to implement like the smallest thing. So from there, I started to understand, okay, it's really complicated. There's no much bandwidth between what I want to do and what the company allows me to do. And then by talking with my colleague, not directly the people that we're working on the same project, but people that we're working in different project, they were encountering the same problems. And the company didn't really allow, I wouldn't say freedom of speech, but when you try and talk to people and say, "Have you been promoted? Are you talking to your manager about getting a promotion? Or are you talking to your manager about going on unpaid leave? What do they feel about?"

08:04

And these kind of conversations were always seen as you cannot really talk about this. It's really private conversation between me and my manager or my manager doesn't want me to talk about this. Or he said, yeah, we will talk about it in the future and then that time never came. So from these small things, bits and pieces, you understand how the culture can be in the company. And I am someone that is not afraid to speak. So I go there and ask, "Can I do this? Or can we talk about this?" And the answer was almost always negative. So, at the beginning, I was like, "Okay, maybe this is normal." But then after a while I was like, "Okay, this is not normal. And I believe there is something different outside that I could be aiming for."

09:08

How do you know when it's the culture that's holding you back versus the size of the company? Because it sounds like a classic problem with a larger company. And I wonder whether there's a way of telling the difference between a bad culture and the natural problems of a big company.

09:30

It really depends on, I think the objective of the company, how do they want to expand and how do they want to grow? It doesn't really matter on the size of the business, I think because for example, a business has different departments with different objectives. They're working together towards the same goal, but sometimes what a department is doing is a bit independent. And I believe that within the department, you still have some margin to do certain things. So if the senior management doesn't allow that or doesn't promote that, it doesn't matter the size of the business, the problem is still there.

10:18

I also believe that the change happens from the top-down, always. So even if it is a small company, I think, is always going to be the CEO or the CTO, the CFO, which is going to make the difference in the culture. And the same thing is going to be in the big company, seeing your head of department where he is, should be listening to top-down and make the change from the bottom-up. But this is my humble opinion. I might be wrong, but I believe that there are something. If you really want your employees to be happy, I'm pretty sure that is something that you can always do.

11:09

Did you do next?

11:10

I changed. I was very grateful for my previous experience. So, I learned a lot and I learned how to navigate difficult situation, which motivated me also to ask questions as soon as I have them not to wait and be upfront. I started to look for a job. So my previous role was an engineer in this company. Then I became a product manager within the same company, but in the hardware space, which is niche. So very complicated to change job in the digital software world. So I decided to change and I wanted to go for like a smaller company where I could have a big impact. And I could also talk to the senior management and have a close relationship with them to kind of shape the way the company's build. So-

12:13

How did you go through that process?

12:18

You mean, which process?

12:19

The process of looking for work. Because at that point at which you decided that you wanted to do something new, what practical steps did you take? Like, what was the process that you went through?

12:31

I know exactly what... Yeah. So, CV, with my experience, updated my CV, uploaded it on LinkedIn and then just apply for the jobs that I was interested in. I wasn't receiving calls, no one was messaging me back and this went on for like a month or so. And I was like, there is something clearly wrong in my CV or something that I'm not doing right because I've got experience. I think I'm quite good candidate for the positions that I'm applying for, so there must be something wrong. So what I did was, I started to attend some online webinars where product managers of digital companies were speaking at. And then shamelessly, I was getting in touch with these people through LinkedIn and trying to get a call with them. And then I chatted with a couple of people and I asked for advice and I was explaining my situation. "I'm applying for roles, but completely different fields because I've got experience in the product management world, but hardware and I want to move into digital product."

14:01

So they gave me some tips and advises. I modified my CV accordingly and then I looked around and I was like, "Okay, LinkedIn's not going to be the only place where I can find for a job." And that's where I found cord. I think I remember that I received an email. It was an invitation.

14:29

I received this invitation. I was like, "I don't know. Why am I invited to this platform? Like how? How did they find me?" And things like that. And then I just created a profile on cord and I started to see all these companies. And what I liked was that I could see companies at every stage of their development, like pre-seed, seed rounds, or corporates. And it was very interesting because coming from a corporate, I was like, "I do not really understand a startup company. What are the stages of development and growth that they go through?" So it was really interesting for me to see that. And then after that, I stayed in cord and this is how I find my new job.

15:24

If I take you back to that moment where you had the confidence to attend those webinars and then message those people, what did you include in the content of that message? What was it that you said to those people that you think made them come back to you and give you advice?

15:45

So, first of all, I was messaging them straight after the webinar. And during the webinar, I was asking question like in a chat. So they couldn't see my face, they only could see my name and the question. And I was asking a lot of questions because I was like, okay, I want them to see my name. Then after, I send them a message straight after the webinar talking a little bit more about the webinar saying, "I really enjoyed the topic." Asking something like, where did you learn a specific concept or how do we apply a specific concept in your organization? Because currently in my organization, we do things differently. And I would mention, "I'm looking to switch between hardware and digital product. What are the things you think are most valuable to know if I were to make this transition?" And everyone was really open honestly, to chat about this. So it wasn't difficult. Of course, sending the first couple of messages was difficult because I was afraid to be ignored. But honestly, that's not the worst thing that can happen, you just get ignored and that's it. Everyone was super helpful.

17:09

And ever since then, you've both continued to be a product manager, but you've also founded, She Founds. Why did you start She Founds?

17:20

Because, in the tech world, or at least engineering and tech world, my experience is there's more male than female. And in my previous company, we were trying to understand why females struggle to get into engineering or tech and why do they struggle to grow? So we interviewed all the female in the company, in leadership position and trying to understand, what are those skills, hard skills and soft skills that you need to have in order to grow? Very interesting interviews and very interesting chats to have with these women, very inspiring. However, very difficult to listen to because, from those conversation we realized, this is not something that everybody can do, or everybody think that they can do. Then by doing research... It's three of us. It's not just me, two of my ex colleagues as well, Bhavisha and Sahil. By doing researches, we realized also that in the investment world, there is a gap there, like 13% of UK investments go to companies founded by female.

18:43

So then we started to talk to more people and say, "Why is that? What's happening?" Attending events, pitching events to kind of see, how many women go to pitching events actually? We want to see on the ground what's going on. And then we said, "Okay, we come from a technical background. So we've got the hard skills that we can teach, but we can also give the motivation to these women and the support that they need." So one way we do that is by organizing monthly live events where we invite female entrepreneurs to share their stories. And we are very passionate about the topic, the subject. So it's been like a very, very nice journey so far.

19:34

I read that your dad taught you to fix a tractor.

19:38

Yeah.

19:39

And that must have been amazing, why can't more people, more women have that experience?

19:46

Yeah. So I might be wrong. But the reason why I went into engineering was because since I was kid, that was my bread and butter. My dad was obsessed with cars, was obsessed with tractors and he still... Now we talk about tractors. We talk about all the machines that he uses to cultivate the fields and stuff like that. So we've got this kind of conversation. And because of that, then I was like, okay, this is my normal... Actually, I was in between. I was in between choosing engineering because my dad taught me how to drive, fix tractors and my mom was hairdresser. So like very opposite.

20:35

Wow.

20:36

Yeah. Completely opposite. But you know, my dad's influence in this was stronger somehow. Of course at the time when I chose engineering, I didn't know that that was the reason why I felt motivated to go towards that path. But then when I realized that there are fewer female that choose this kind of path is because, they've never seen it in their life. And at first, when you kind of go and see how do I build a website? How do I build an app? Or how can I fix the car if it breaks down in the middle of the road? All these things are scary and they look difficult. And if you do not have anyone in your life that kind of teaches you and takes you through and says, "This is actually very easy. You can do it too. It doesn't matter if you're a female or a male you can do it regardless of your gender." Then you can embrace it and decide what you want to do, because the opportunities that were presented to you were multiples, not only few.

21:49

And I think this is one of the strongest reason why women or little girls do not go for like STEM subjects in uni, because they were never presented to things, they never seen the opportunities and they're presented by society as these things are difficult. Sometimes only men can do it, which is not true. I strongly believe that men support women and we all think that we've got same kind of abilities and skills, but is the way the society is build. And where are you coming from? The culture, the families, there is a lot of factors that influence this. So I was lucky because I was presented to both. I was presented to be an hair dresser or whatever it was that I could have been doing, following that path. And I was presented to be an engineer or a more technical person or even a mechanic. I don't know, it could have been that too. But I chose because I had both choices. And that was key in my development,

23:04

It's harder for women to get into STEM subjects. It's also harder for them to find work. What things do you think women have to do when they're looking for work that kind of go unsaid that aren't as obvious and that's different perhaps than if you are a man?

23:31

So my experience is that, even for myself, at the beginning when I was looking for a job, I was not going for really, I don't know, one level above my current role or something too different from what I was doing, because I always had the misconception, my skillset, or my experience doesn't really suit the job. So there is that in the equation, and there is a bit of a imposter syndrome situation, like, I don't think I can do the job. I am going to wait a little bit to see if I can do this course. Or I'm going to wait to talk to this person to see if my experience really can suit this job title. And there shouldn't be waiting. There shouldn't be like, oh, let me think about... I think we should be bolder.

24:34

And I spoke to a lot of men that said, "Yeah, I know that probably out of 10 hard skills that are required for this job, I probably have five, but I will still go for it because the worst case scenario they will just reject me and that's it. I will still be looking for a job." So I think we should talk a bit more about impostor syndrome, the fact that we do not feel qualified, but we actually are. And I think this is one of the most important thing that the recruitment world is now shifting towards. You've got preferable skills, things that you really need to have to do the job, because there are certain things that you need to know. But there are some others skills that if you have, good, if you don't have, we teach you. I also believe that there's no job that... Unless you are a doctor or a lawyer, which the skills are really specific and you've must have gone to uni to learn all of those stuff, you can learn.

25:50

You can learn, you can challenge yourself. There are skills that you can gain, even when you're 30, when you're 40, when you're 15, there's no time to learn something new and you can always learn. The important thing is that, you are motivated, you surround yourself with the right people and you like what you do.

26:11

What practical advice would you give other women who are looking for work right now?

26:17

First of all, I will say, try to understand what's the field that you want to be in. Because I think being in the field that you like, it's key because it means that you're going to have fun in what you're doing. Search for the job title and the job description. Have a read through the job title and the job description, trying to understand what are the skills that you have and you don't have. And reach out to people. Reach out to people, have conversations, not be afraid of, sounds stupid. Even if no question is really stupid, just talk to people and make contact, because you never know who you speak to. And the person that you will find might give you the opportunity to grow in the company. I think lot of the choices that employers make when they hire someone nowadays is not based on the CV.

27:30

It's really based on, "I'm calling you for the interview, let's have a chat, let's have a conversation, see how you fit within the company, see how you fit with the team." And in my experience, I'm very lucky because my boss is super friendly. The team is amazing. So when we interview people, we just want to know if they can be a good fit for the team. Meaning like, can we work well together? Can we have some fun together whilst we work? Can we elaborate ideas together in a fun way? This is important. And this is also what I'm trying to do with my company and my... Not my company, sorry, my employer. I raised the concern, I would like the company to be more diverse and hire more female and especially more female in the tech team.

28:37

And we just hired a woman software developer in the team, which I'm very happy about. And my boss didn't ask for like an exercise or how you code on Ruby on Rails. He didn't ask for it. He asked me, have a chat with this person, talk about the experience, but then talk about the reasoning why is she changing? Why she interested in the company? What she would like to do? How does she want the work to be on a daily basis? And I really appreciated this approach because it doesn't put the candidate under pressure, first of all. And on the other side, probably this person had a really good insight of how the day in the life of our company can be, which is very helpful to make the decision.

29:34

Was that different to the process that a man would go through?

29:38

I don't think so. It would be the same in this company that I am in. But I'm trying to influence this as much as I can since I've been through the process, not so long ago. So I feel also very valued by the fact that my manager included me in the process and is listening to some of the advices. But he also realizes that it's very difficult to have women in this field. So, can you please push or find a woman in the subject?

30:18

How have you dealt with compensation conversations in the past?

30:24

Very hard. So no one will talk about compensation in my previous company, because apparently it's not polite to ask. And I didn't know that. For me, it's super normal or super transparent. I'm transparent about salary and for me, it was kind of normal to ask people, but it wasn't. So people were very shy about sharing their salary unless they were close, close colleagues and friends. Towards the end, or when I decided to change my job was... Because I knew that I was underpaid and I had multiple conversation with my managers. They couldn't do anything, normal stuff. And I spoke to someone, a woman, and I said, "Listen, I don't know what to do. I'm struggling because I do not understand how much shall I ask for. I'm not ready to go there and ask for something because I don't know how much should I ask for." And this woman has been very honest with me.

31:44

We had the same job, but she had way more years of experience than me, not in the same company. In the company, I had more experience than her. And she told me her salary and I just flipped out. I was like, "This is not possible." And she told me, "Viv, you are doing a better job than me because you know more about the product than I do. So you deserve, if not more, the same as me." And that was the day that I said, "Ah, I'm going. I'm going because now I understand how much is my value work-wise."

32:29

And then how did you approach it in the conversations that you had with your next employer? Did it affect how you approached it in any way?

32:40

No. Well, actually, yeah, it's because I was like, "I know and I'm going to ask for this. I'm not going to ask for any less or I'm not going to compromise for any less. I can wait." Also, because I share my flat with friends, I don't have family, so my life is really different from a married couple with kids and stuff like that. So how can we pretend that we cannot talk about salary when people need to literally plan their life around salary? They've got mortgage, they've got bills, they've got house, they've got kids. We need to know what is the salary range we can ask for when we take on a job.

33:36

Are there any other inputs that you got beside talking to your colleague?

33:41

So I had input from HR, but very vague, very, very vague. The reason is because, people were paid really differently in the company and they were trying to fix this problem, but they were in the process to do so. So, they preferred not to disclose the salaries because they were going through like a change and leveling with the market, when I was there. But it was very frustrating for me. It was really, really frustrating for me at the time. But now it's way easier, way better. And I think also the industry that I am in is a bit more transparent, I will say.

34:38

How has your definition of doing your best work changed since the very beginning, Viv?

34:43

I always want to do a good job, always, because I'm the kind of person that when I take on board a challenge, I'm going to go for it because I want to give my best. Otherwise, I will say no since the beginning. So what changed is that I put myself out of my comfort zone and that shook me a little bit and I really enjoyed it. At the beginning of this new experience, I didn't know what I was doing and the subject was completely different. The first day was, wow, I don't know, what are we talking about. And before, I was really, really confident. So now I'm even more motivated to do better because there is a lot to learn and I'm really curious about. I think that I'm doing a better job because I'm out of my comfort zone.

35:47

I hope it continues. Thanks so much for sharing your story, Viv. Loved it.