Working rituals - Christian Rebernik

00:00

The rituals you're building or you're having, doesn't matter. They define a lot how you are, because it's automatic reactions. It's not just, I don't know, the 50 minutes morning ritual you build up, but it's actually this automatisms you have built into you.

00:16

If somebody calls you, what's the first thing you do. If you close a day, what are you doing? If something bad happens, what is your first reaction? I think the question is, "What is your automatisms there?"

00:30

And I think this is something which is unfortunate because often, it happens very unconscious. Which is a good thing, because then you don't have to think about it. But then how you build those things up has such a big impact.

00:44

If the gift of our modern time is that we have the freedom and choice to be able to allocate our own time according to our own unique being, when did you first reflect on who you wanted to become?

01:00

It's like your family. I think. Maybe it's a more complicated answer. But in a nutshell, I'm very late. I think most of the life just happened to me. It was literally, I think for many of us, it's just happening. And you don't know why even things are happening and coming to you.

01:29

For me, I think, nobody in school or at university ask me ever what I want. It was not a question. Nobody asked me what are my values. Yes, the boss is eventually, "Which job do you want to have?" When I was a kid, "Do you want to become a dentist or do you want to become...?" Which doesn't say something about who you want to become.

02:00

And learning about, actually this I found out in the different roles and opportunities I had, it's what I really wanted. And for me it was more like, if you have a relationship with a person you fall in love with and it doesn't work out, then afterwards you know exactly a little bit more about yourself and what you don't want.

02:23

So the barrier for the next relationship is getting higher. And I think with every relationship you have, you're raising the bar for a new relationship. But it also helps you, I think quite often, to define what you actually want. What is important to you. But I think this can be done way earlier and with way less pain as well, to be honest.

02:50

By just starting actually off. And it could be as early as in your school. Talking about it, thinking about it. And again, this is all temporary. Who you want and who you want to become. This is shaped by your experiences. So this changes, I think also over the years. It's nothing ultimate, but I think it's at any moment of time, it's really good to know consciously what that is.

03:17

And once you define this again, thinking about, how to build that for you and how can this become a reality. So I think I really just did this consciously.

03:28

The question was, "When did I actually find this out for myself?"

03:32

And I think it was just when I moved to Berlin, here and started, when was this?

03:40

I think literally then I became more and when I started one of my jobs. I had a couple of not so good experiences I think when it came to, it was successful from my job perspective but it was less meaningful.

03:58

And when I realized this, when I was in Berlin, starting up, one of my challenges. I realized how important it is to do something really meaningful. And that's when I realized that I need to think about this. And this was more or less, I don't know, now 10 years ago.

04:17

And also since the last 10 years, it has transitioned to continuously evolve, "Who do I want to be? What is important that really close to my heart?"

04:28

But before it was, I think more plain..

04:32

By all intents and purposes, the point at which you move to Berlin, you are the success that we all put on a pedestal. You've made it to the outside world. You've achieved the thing that we all, the place we want to get to. But yet you hadn't thought about it until that point?

04:56

Thank you very much. I think that the question's always, "What do you want to achieve and what is this thing you really want?"

05:04

But, no, I think the things happen to me literally. It's something which just...

05:15

And the interesting fact why it happens actually is because you have certain, for example, habits, which then I think incentivize certain serendipity. Certain things to happen to you, I think from that perspective.

05:34

But it was less shaped in that regard. So to give you an example. After school, I started to study economics. But I was studying it because I didn't know what to do. I said, "Okay, you need to do something. I could pick any studies to be fair."

06:00

And when I was starting to study, I was really not successful because I didn't understand why I was learning. It wasn't motivating me to learn. I didn't know about HR back then. I didn't understand it. It was totally irrelevant to me.

06:13

So yes, "Let's learn for the next exam." But then I also figured out that, eventually, it's just the wrong thing for me. But I didn't know what to do next so that's where I started to actually set up my own company and say, "Hey, I somehow something to do with technology." And then it was the internet boom time so, "Let's do something and create a website for somebody."

06:40

And, "Yeah. Wow. That one sounds like it's happier. Actually something which works." So it was more or less stumbling into those things. It was not like, "Okay, I want to become that. This is so important to me." I didn't know it back then, really.

06:56

What changed for you in your life when you verbalized who you wanted to become and you thought about it more deeply?

07:08

What changed? That's a very interesting question. I think what changed is, so it's a personality question. But I think for me, it was a lot of working. It was a lot of hustling, you could even say. Just doing things. But it's less, you're not focused on being effective. And I think for me, it was more important just afterwards to pick the right things than tend to do things.

07:48

I was being more selective into what I do and where I spend my time in. I love this visualization of the circle of influence, where you have the three circles. There is this large bubble of the things which is happening to you. It's shaping it outside. Then it's a smaller bubble, which is the things I can indirectly influence. For example, I don't know, I can ask you to stand up but I cannot control you. I can ask you to do it. So I have a certain influence, for example.

08:29

And then there are the things I don't know, I can influence directly, like taking off my glasses. Could be something which I can influence directly. And the thing is, if you are not talking about it, if you're spending a lot of time with the pandemic. And wondering and complaining about the pandemic. Your influence is just decreasing constantly because you're not spending your time and your mind on things which you actually have an influence on.

09:02

Which decreases your influence because the time you spend on things you can influence is just reduced. And it's the other way around, the more time you spend on things you actually have an impact on, the bigger growth you influence because you see that you have more impact on those things. You actually want to change.

09:20

I think this is one of the really crucial things. And the important part is now talking about, for example, also bigger things. You can also pick to move something into your influence. But it's a very different thing if you complain about the epidemic or if you say, "Hey, the epidemic is something I want to change something about. And I really want to do something in panic happening."

09:43

It doesn't matter if it's from politics, maybe just choose a different place where I want to live for a certain period of time or whatever. But there're certain things you can do, and the more you can do and the more you see that actually it has an impact, the bigger, again, it grows your influence.

10:01

So I think this is something which, for me, is what I'm trying to do. Is picking interested things, which I just pull into the things I want to change and therefore you have a positive impact. And that is, I think, very satisfying from that perspective.

10:19

And this also then relates to the initial question as where do you spend your time? I think you need to, in a key thing, is to know what you want to influence first before you can choose that or that.

10:36

It sounds like knowing what you want to influence, in some ways, increases that first circle that you spoke about. It's pretty small if you don't know what you love, because how can you then choose to do it. But as soon as you start to open up your mind slightly and you understand yourself more deeply, your sphere of control opens up because you can now identify what things sit within it somehow.

11:10

Yeah. And I'm just looking at what we do now here, this podcast. I mean, this is something which you set up as one of your things where you'll say, "Hey, you want to talk eventually to leaders and exchange different topics with them and based on that role from you."

11:27

And this is something which helps you personally. Again, the same thing is to be more effectual and develop. And I think this is then what comes to, I think, it's also unconscious or behavior. You're setting up those habits. You don't know what the result is exactly, but you're setting habits up for eventually personal development. And then based on that, grow what you actually wanted to achieve eventually.

11:58

When you chose to be the CTO or MD in N26, what were you pulling into your sphere there?

12:07

What was it that you wanted to bring into your sphere of control?

12:14

It's an interesting topic. I think personally for a couple of reasons. For me, a couple of challenges which I really want to learn, when it was? It was back in 2012, I think, when I met a head hunter. And the head hunter, I talked with him about opportunities. And I was wondering also, "What should I do?"

12:46

And I talked to him, actually I want to be an entrepreneur. Seize opportunities, have impact in the world. Positive impact. And he told me, back then I was CTO. And he told me, "There is no chance for CTO. I never have seen a CTO becoming actually CEO."

13:06

So out of that discussion, I thought, I really want to impact the world. I need to learn certain things because coming from a technical background and many things from a thinking process, is very structured. Very logical. You are really the problem solver, which is really great.

13:28

But you like also a couple of other experiences, which is very often to do with, when it comes to relationships and managing that. When it comes to actually business development. To sales, being open for great discussions, random great discussions. Just taking action rather than thinking too much or overthinking it.

13:49

A couple of things, which I think is a typical, very take it [inaudible 00:13:54], how I would say that. And for me, the challenge I was facing, I want to become an entrepreneur. I want to be able to set up my own company. And for that, I want to learn actually many of those perspectives.

14:13

And well, the possibility to join N26, I had a feeling I can set up in that way and learn a lot there. And at N26, I joined as a managing director, giving me a lot of opportunity to learn and grow.

14:32

What happened?

14:35

I did learn a lot.

14:36

It was an amazing time. It was an amazing time. And I think one of the great things about N26 is I met a lot of great people there. Meeting great people, being able to exchange, to learn, to gain perspectives. The many people I know still today, very, very well connected with them, who inspire me today.

15:03

And I would say, created more opportunities down the road exactly led to good direction. So this is one of the reasons why after N26, I actually started my own company then as a founder first. And actually since then, I've started three companies. So from that perspective, I think it was exactly what I'm building.

15:26

And now I'm also changed my focus a little bit more from actually learning how to become an entrepreneur, to how to help others actually become those change makers. Because the dream, I think of creating a better world, a better future for us, this is for me, it's the same. But I think the way to be this is not by creating more companies myself, but actually by enabling others.

15:51

So that's one of the reasons why I founded Tomorrow's Education is because I think the biggest lever in to a more sustainable society is actually by helping others by empowering others to do that.

16:03

I'm fascinated to know what's happened in your mind as we go into 2017, 2018. Two-three years after you've had this moment of, "I'm going to verbalize this internal voice. I'm going to spend a bit more time thinking about what's truly motivating me."

16:25

You're two years in, three years into this. You've not just joined a great company, but then you've started building more.

16:32

What position do you find yourself in at that point?

16:37

And how different is it from the Christian from before?

16:42

Looking back five years, 2017, there was a lot of reflection, I think. For sure a lot of reflections learning in the last 10 years. If the things I'm doing are actually helping me to achieve the things I actually want, but also to follow the values, which are really close to me, what I believe matters most.

17:12

And this is what I've, for example, what I really have, and it took me some time. It's interesting because it's so obvious. And for many young people, I think it's something super, super obvious.

17:25

But for example, I really learned from myself that relations and the people who I'm working with matter way more than if the person has the skills and competencies. I really believe that the relationships even in work, especially all in work, is the first thing you need to look at.

17:50

And then the values that other people have. That you have a certain fundamental actually to manage the challenges. So coming from a technical background, it was a lot about logic things. And I think for me, what has shifted is that, it's a way more focus on actually people. It's a way more focus, but also there's a lot of focus on, I spent more time with myself.

18:24

I have built up rituals which help me to clear. I have kids, which take a lot of time. And you have time with work. You have time with kids, with friends. But how much time do you spend on yourself?

18:40

So I think the biggest shift, if I'm thinking back actually in the last 10 years, is the time I spent actually just reflecting. Preparing myself, setting goals eventually. Also eventually, my case, meditating in the morning. It's part of that.

18:59

What rituals have you picked up?

19:03

So I believe, this is maybe one of the core things. I think that the rituals you're building or you're having, doesn't matter. They define a lot how you are because it's automatic reactions. It's not just the, I don't know, the 50 minutes morning ritual you build up. But it's actually these automatisms you have built into you.

19:24

If somebody calls you, what's the first thing you do? If you close a day, what are you doing? If something bad happens, what is your first reaction? I think the question is, what is your automatism there?

19:39

And I think this is something which is unfortunate because it happens very unconsciously. Which is a good thing because, then it's, you don't think about it. But then how you build those things up has such a big impact. And so I think that's the reason why I think rituals really matter a lot, because they're so hard to set up. To craft and eventually to change, because you need to first identify them eventually.

20:05

And then changing something, which is automatic, it's really, I think one of the tougher challenges for everybody. And it gets just harder the older you are. So this won't be easier. And the younger you are and you have set up successful habits, it's so great. It makes your life so easier.

20:22

I don't know, comes to a talk, comes to a presentation. But it comes to, I don't know, something like waking up. "What is the first thing you do in a morning?" And I know for example, for myself, if I stand up and start reading social media, it just gets you in a bad mood. It's sometimes frustrating. You don't feel better.

20:49

But if you actually stand up, what I do is take hands and water in my face. And then I do some exercise. And your feel just different. You feel your muscles have moved. It's something different. It helps me to meditate in the morning. Think about what I want to do.

21:06

What the one thing I really want to achieve on that day? What is important to me, for example? So I'm a morning person now. I have a morning routine which defines really what I want. And the great thing about mornings, what I love about it, it's something where you have no interruptions.

21:23

So opposite to the evening where sometimes you go out. There's, I don't know what. But it's less plannable. There is something that's happening in the morning, it's really something which is really easy to set up, easy to maintain from the perspective.

21:38

So, that would be one thing. But it's also something like looking at companies. It's about gratitude. As a founder, often there is this perspective. You're always I think very promising in the long term. You think, "Hey, the vision is great. The future is great. But the short term, shit." It's always problematic. It's never good enough. Never.

22:00

And I think this is for many founders, at least I know, it's always a challenge because, "It's not going fast enough. It's not good enough." Whatever. But when are you thankful for a team who's actually doing an amazing, outstanding job? That you actually are where you are. So when is the time you do that? And building up a credit, it could be, "There are different ways to do this."

22:27

After meeting, before you close the session, think about it. Or you have 50 minutes a day there just say, "Thank you." You could also integrate into every talk. Think about the talk and say, "In every talk, I want to be thankful for the opportunity actually working with this person."

22:47

And just expressing that. And these little things are potential game changers. Even if they have no immediate impact in the first time you're doing them. But if you have built them up, they will make you a different person. And that's what I mean with, if you know who you are, because you want to be a grateful person for example, for things you experience.

23:11

If you know that, then you can think about setting that up that single measure has a big impact, but if you have changed your habit to build it up, that's a huge, massive impact. And it's really about the time actually. We have a lot of time, we just don't use it. Which you mentioned at the beginning, I think using it for our purpose, that's the challenge.

23:41

Sounds like there are two types of rituals. Rituals that you stitch together proactively in your life. Like meditation, for example, where you carve out the time to do it.

23:53

And rituals where your un-stitching behaviors that you've already got or instinctual reactions to things.

24:05

Which one harder?

24:06

Everything which you don't know is the harder part. And often things like I said, meditating 50 minutes every day is something very easy to set up because, it's easy to measure, easier to observe. So, that's the reason I think all those things are from that perspective, generally easier.

24:22

But it also, giving example, I think it's a great boom in US about channeling. Everybody who's channeling, that's already a big thing, which helps you to reflect every day. And I think channeling is one of the great habits. Which then, if you start doing that, could have a lot of triple effects afterwards from that perspective.

24:46

And then you think about, again, I don't know, it could be a bad mood. It could be, I don't know, whatever. And just noticing that, can help you eventually. For example, like the patterns. And once you have a pattern, I love the book from James Clear about Atomic Habits, because he explains very wisely what is the steps. How do you make this changes actually happening?

25:11

It's not tough, but it's again, many things. Once you know how to make it, then it's easier to replace, for example, a habit. You need to know what is the reward you receive. Once you know the reward, then it's easier to replace it with another thing. It's sometimes very much harder to stop something.

25:30

Give you an example. If you come home from work, and maybe not now. But if you come home from work and the first thing is you do, you want to have something to drink because it relaxes you. So what you want is the relaxation. And currently the only thing which gives you relaxation is something to drink.

25:47

But then if something, I don't know, if alcohol, it could be maybe too much. So you want to replace that habit for example, then you need to think about, "What is the same thing which helps you eventually to relax? What could be that?" "And then if I replace it,", for example, "and then set this up here." But this could be, I don't know, could be something.

26:05

How have these rituals enabled you to pursue your best work?

26:12

I think it's all about the rituals you have, because once you have established certain rituals, you can build on top new rituals. I think what I meant, your consequence of those things. It's just, you have suffer from there. You don't get to the super sophisticated, you really build.

26:30

Building those layers of layers up on your rituals, that you actually can because at the beginning, it costs a lot. If you do something consciously, setting something up consciously, that's just tough. So I think it's, you first need to integrate a cup form before you can concentrate on next rituals.

26:50

And I think again, that's who you are. And this will define also how you spend your time, for example. If you spend your time, if you focus time to make the progress you want to make. Or if you spend your time on sales or with the team more. And even not just not what you do, but also how you make those meetings. Why, for example, those important? What do you want to get out of that?

27:23

Typically, for 99% of our life, we don't think, we just do those things. So, that's what I mean. They are just automatisms. And then eventually we have those other things, which are very exceptional. But that's the exception, that big part is just what happens. And we are not doing it consciously, it just happens.

27:45

When we self reflect, though that self reflection is almost in all parts positive, in some ways, they're two different types of motivations that are inside you. There's your intrinsic motivations and your external motivations.

28:06

When you are going through that period of self reflection yourself and deciding what to work on next, where to allocate your time, how do you make sure that you are being motivated by the right things?

28:19

I think it's always about first knowing, why do you want the things you want? And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that everything is possible from today to tomorrow. I think that there's always some certain barriers. But the likelihood is just way more increased if you have to divide set up.

28:40

I think for the reflection part, for me reflection is something which I can do with myself even today. But I think for the reflection part, it's not something which I'm doing it and I'm done and it's a check mark. It's something which, for me, is more a continuous process.

29:00

Listening to others. What do they experience? What works in the relation eventually? The reflection for me is a lot of listening and then understanding. And this is something which needs to happen I think, also constantly.

29:16

And the great thing it's where, if you have eventually a sounding board for yourself, if you have people you trust eventually from whatever diverse background, who experience in different situation. You can be very openly and ask them, "How do you experience me? What's your perspective on this?"

29:38

And then select yourself what you want to take from this, because I think this is something which still, you need to decide obviously. "What is step one?" Which you agree, disagree. One may say, "Hey, this is not in line with what I actually want. I want to evolve in that direction."

29:55

I think also, I had phases in my life where there was eventually too much. Too big step. And therefore eventually also too many critics or too much self doubt. And I think stability matters a lot. So I mentioned the habits you have and then you build on top of it. But you can just change yourself, I think so much. Otherwise, you become defensive eventually or whatever your reaction is.

30:28

But I think it's very important to have the opportunity to think. And that's what I meant. It's also important to have time for yourself, because if you don't have the time actually to adjust those things, then they are worthless, which is quite often happening.

30:43

"I know I should do that. I know I would like to do this." And you're not spending the time actually doing that. So the problem we see or I see or I experience most of my life is, knowing is rarely the issue. The issue is I actually saying, "Hey, that's not in my influence. And I influence it and I'm making this move."

31:07

Moving something into the circle of influence and deciding that's what I will now change. And this cannot be 20 things. Best is one, maybe it's two. It depends on how big the topics are, but the less, the better. And once the first thing is changed, then you can make put the next thing into your inference. And that's what I meant.

31:26

That's how I thought of circle of inference. Just gets larger because all of things you do all of a sudden work out. And that's, for me, what is really essential when it comes to reflection. Constantly listening, but also having the time to reflect and then take action.

31:43

How do when you've bitten off more than you can chew for that self growth, because burnout can creep up on us. It's not something that necessarily is an instant feeling. You can reflect back and think, "Actually, this happened three months ago."

32:01

I wouldn't even say it's not my strength per because from my personality type, I have a high stress tolerance and resilience. But the problem with it is often that you don't feel yourself as strong mentally.

32:15

So I think what helps for example, is your meditation. That you actually listen to your body and to your inner self, because in reality, you know it, you feel it anyway. And you feel it most of the time, really early on, if something doesn't work out already.

32:36

But listening to yourself and experiencing that. And again, taking action. Saying "No. Okay." Accepting eventually reality how it is now. "Now this is not in my influence. I don't want to touch this now." That's the first step. I think this kind of process is very important. This kind of reflection again, to choose your battles, literally.

33:00

"That's what I want. That's what I don't want." This is what meant for accepting reality? I don't know, there are many things which I'm not perfect. And I don't need to be perfect or outstanding in certain areas. I mean, we are all not. Nobody, first, is perfect.

33:17

So I think it's all about, "Hey, it's okay that this is outside of my circle of inference currently. I'm not the politician. I will not change this. I don't know. It could be very more tangible topics, but I don't want to be the public speaker right now. I think at one point of time, eventually it's time to do that." Listen as one of examples.

33:37

But now, for me, my relationship matters a lot. So I want to focus really on making my relationship work. And for that, what I have an influence is, could be whatever. But this is, I think, the important part. Accepting that certain things are out of your influence now and certain things are inside your influence, and making those choices.

33:59

I may then say, "Now, because I've made the choice, then it's okay that I'm..." I don't know. Could be I suppose, what else is good as an example?

34:06

"I'm okay that I'm not eventually good at running meetings. But that's okay. I accept this for now."

34:12

I think this acceptance of the verity is really crucial to all of us, in we are not perfect.

34:21

When you make a big career decision, what part of your body do you listen to most?

34:27

I think this has changed. I asked my wife, so it's not my body.

34:40

To make a career change. I think, because in my life, I made a couple of career changes. And they all have, I think very good reasons for that. And I think they all have been important in that regard, all those changes. And I think that's what I meant with the people first. I think it's what you know already. If this is not the right, eventually you feel it doesn't work out at this stage.

35:16

And the other feeling I think you have is, if anything, you're choosing. So I think the one thing is when you want to leave someplace. For whatever reason, I think this is something that I would listen very much to make out. And sometimes the problem more with my gut is that I don't react to it. That's what I mentioned before.

35:38

So my typical resilience would say, "Let's keep it down. Let's ignore it. Let's ignore it. Let's ignore it." And that's, I think really false. And you should listen to that and talk about it and really address the issue you feel. And as early as possible.

35:54

I would also always address this in the company itself directly, because that's the way you have a chance to actually resolve it. Very openly address directly the issues you feel. And also I think all the feelings they don't need to be made logic. And I think you can just address how you feel. It doesn't need always to be rational.

36:17

Just coming from a [inaudible 00:36:20] that happens very often. They would try to make it logical, make it sound. But it doesn't need to be. You can try to articulate what you feel. Maybe you feel in that direction, that direction.

36:33

We should learn more in schools about feelings, by the way. That's another thing. But the other thing is then, what's next? And I think this is for many people today is, uncertainty. And uncertainty, it depends on who you are. Some people can just make this very nervous and scared. And tough to make the right choice.

37:03

And I think for me, my this is, again, a personal thing. I think for me, the decision where, what I'm doing next needs to feel good. And sometimes, you're just wrong. And I give you an example, I don't have it in my LinkedIn Profile anywhere, but I also joined the company which planned an IPO. And they did convince me thoroughly to join.

37:34

And they say, "Hey, Christian, you're the perfect match. We need you. To join with you, we can make the IPO. You get all the big packages you want and everything you want. And just join us." And they persuaded me. And then I said, "Okay, let's do it." But it didn't feel so right.

37:54

So I joined. And I started it and it really didn't feel right. And I gave it one week, as I said, "Hey, the gut says it's not right."

38:06

So anyway, they have been happy with what I did. But I didn't feel right. And after, it took me two weeks. Really long actually in that feeling to quit. And after two weeks I quit. It was super stupid, I think for them, because they have been looking for me for quite some time. They've been very happy to find this person. And now they go back to zero.

38:30

But overall, I think the earlier you listen to your gut, the better. And the more honest you are to what you actually want, the less wrong decisions or stupid decisions you make, literally. That's what I think.

38:50

It felt really sabbatical. I think it wouldn't happen to me because I think I would listen more to what I actually want. I would know what I want now. I would know what my values are. What is for me a goal, no goal. So I learned a lot about myself and what is important to me. And I learned also a little bit better about being more accurate and actually trying to understand others and other companies.

39:13

Especially actually people behind the team, still don't guarantee you from their perspective. But I think the answer would be, in a nutshell, listen to your gut. Typically I think you will feel, if it feels good.

39:28

How do you go about gathering the information you need for your gut to make that decision? So the obvious answer to that is conversations with people. You have the pleasure of two weeks of working with that company. What information do you try and draw into your gut in order to make that call and how do you go about it?

39:50

I have a friend of mine, was really great. And he's actually, I think was a very people-oriented person, but his decisions when it comes to jobs, is Excel Sheet. It's literally a metrics. All attributes exactly measured and then lists up the opportunities and compare salaries and people learning opportunity and all this. And it's really large.

40:14

And I think he has done no decision correctly. Which I think is really funny. So from that perspective, I think it's his own view, from that perspective. I think we try, and this is maybe not true for everybody. But I've seen many people, including myself, to over rationalize decisions.

40:39

And over rationalizing it, means you are over arguments against your gut, because typically you will feel very instantly based on the interactions you have. And you typically you search up, you have a couple of interactions. Which give you a sensation about, "Does this feel right? Do you feel these people will help you to advance? Do you like to work with those people?"

41:02

This is something I think you can thrive actually. It's still and there is no guarantee. It's like in a relationship, you feel it's a great match for you. But then I don't know, after such a long time, you can still figure out, it doesn't work out.

41:18

But the more talks and more impressions you have, the better you feel if this is right or not. Or not right. And you can be wrong, it's also, okay. There's no guarantee otherwise.

41:29

But giving another example, talking about founding. How do you find a co-founder? Which I think is also very similar relative problem. That's the reason why if somebody asks me, "Hey, how do I find my co-founder?"

41:44

I would first go to your network and to the people you've worked with together already for a long period of time. Or to your friends. Because there you know if it works, because you have so many more information, touch points on the gut feeding with them, that they can better touch most likely if it will work out.

42:04

And that's why I mentioned before, it's more about actually the personality and who you work together with, than what is the actually problem. Obviously there's-

42:12

Interesting. Your advice there is go to your network. Not necessarily because the best people are in your network, but because you can understand the people in your network better than you can understand other people.

42:21

Yeah. The likelihood that you fail and your work relation fails is very high because of just working with the wrong people together. And no company has never successful, no startup I know. Not too open. No startup I know is if the founder team has not worked closer together.

42:41

And it's the same true in the workplace at the end. That's also why sometimes it's much harder to work for the government because people are just put randomly together eventually. And many startups are also successful because they're actually friends working together at their best. It's just a different experience often for that reason. Now it doesn't mean it cannot work the other way around. And I'm just saying that's a good way to look first because their likelihood is just bigger.

43:13

What have you learned about work through your children?

43:21

So much? Yes. Okay.

43:26

So I have three children. Currently the age of six, nine and 10. So all still pretty young.

43:35

But then again, so I think with your first child, you realize, way more than before, that it's not about you. So I think that the most important learning for people which get children is it's not about you. And everything, which beforehand centered around, you changes from that perspective.

44:03

And I think that what you start to way more think what can you do for others? I think this change, a channel of mindset thing, is stronger and there are so many things I learned. But I think that's on the high level thing. Maybe it's something more tangible.

44:29

So I did a class on negotiation. It was an amazing class with, he was a police man. He was doing labor negotiation on the national level. He was negotiating with pirates about what to do the hostages. And he also had for sure, economic company negotiation when it comes to M and A.

44:51

And he told us a lot of lists on what to do and what not to do. And never give in. Always have the person safe face, if needs to give in, many things. But also this topic, "Ask high and then..."

45:15

And my kids are just a born negotiator. And always, if they want something and as I say no, they increase their demand. Their parents typically they lower it. "Okay. Okay. I give you a little bit."

45:29

So, kids are great to learn about negotiation. They have a natural habit of divide and conquer with their parents. That's what you need to tell them.

45:41

But, there's a lot about leadership in general, I think, when it comes to, you can learn from your kids. And it's really great because I think you see that planting the seed, in a sense of, forcing something is less helpful than planting ideas. And I think this is also very often true.

46:09

And the same is true about rituals, for example. It's very important what rituals you're building up and how you're building them up. This is also the thing, companies are often defined who has stresses. But I think many companies' success is defined by rituals, which have group rituals, which they're doing together.

46:34

How you're building. But I think that's lot of what you can learn from family dynamics.

46:40

Can I ask you three final, relatively quick fire questions before we finish?

46:45

Absolutely.

46:49

How have you overcome imposter syndrome?

46:55

I think a lot is about, first of all, acknowledging it.

47:00

Good start.

47:04

Let's start that. The interesting part, do you anything about [Enneagram 00:47:12]?

47:13

No.

47:14

No. Okay. Enneagram is a really amazing research book about actually different personalities. And the thing is, it's not about judging who you are. I think it's a lot about understanding who you are and how can you grow.

47:32

And there is a lot of actually about these personality types and personality type. I think to me is a lot about the American, the imposter in that regard. They want to be, and which honestly, typically resonates with myself very well, because imposters are typically very productive. But they feel that they're never good enough, from that perspective.

47:56

So I think understanding that is really important. And being able to think about, "What does this mean for others?" So how are you perceived by others for the reason as well? It is, I think, the second really important step. And then, looking into it and thinking what you can do about it. And in my case, again, I have a wife. She's amazing. She helps me a little bit to understand, a different perspective on things.

48:28

How have you overcome the trap when you've invested in a certain line of work for a period of time, but you realize that it's not truly what you want to be doing?

48:43

And you want to be doing something different where you've spent less time on it. And you ultimately have to cut your losses, move down a peg and move on something else where you feel more a beginner.

48:53

How have you overcome that trap? In the past?

48:55

I could bring up a couple examples, but really quickly, maybe biggest one. I was working at Bwin for nine years. Joining as a developer person, number 30. And I stayed there for nine years. And the company was 3000 people, large. And I had a great job, great salary, very stable. And I knew everybody and an amazing future ahead of me.

49:21

But I had also known not the opportunity to develop really massively, because I was a little bit stuck, I think from this perspective. And then I had one, my Head of HR there, and he shared a story that he actually was also in HR, just a recruiter. And he earned so much that he then was so afraid of switching jobs. But then he stepped down and took a job at a smaller company, as Head of HR.

49:48

But that helped him to learn more. He was earning way less money, but he was progressing. And then I took this advice actually for myself. I quit the job. I changed it actually and became CTO at a very smaller company.

50:03

But it helped me so much to learn myself and develop myself, being better. Very different perspective. So this was one of my learnings. Also earning very less salary from that perspective. But it helped me to grow.

50:19

And this growth was way more important than earning more salary and being more in a safe spot from our perspective. Just changed, for sure, a big part of my life.

50:33

I wish I'd known you before 2015. I met both Christians. I love that. Thanks man.