Health and work - Emma Walker

00:00

Especially in healthcare. Who are our users in healthcare? There's going to be a lot of people that are long term sick, have chronic illnesses, disabled, et cetera. If you don't have those voices in a company that are developing services for people that need it, you're going to miss out on insight. You are going to not understand them to then be able to create services that are inclusive, that are thinking about those things. And that to me was a real draw about AcureX, because I felt like me having a disability was actually a real bonus to the company, and I felt like the weighting for me was like, actually, not only they're going to understand me more, but I can do really good things here because the people that we're serving are people that I feel that I can relate to some of the situations. Not all, but some of the situations they may be going through and actually could improve those services as a result.

01:04

So you don't sound like you were born in the UK. Your earrings are the bus shelters.

01:20

Yeah.

01:20

That are of another country. What happened?

01:20

So I was born in Australia. So although my accent isn't that strong, my parents are both British and I always wanted to come to the UK and live here and experience that side, which has been really good because of such a thriving tech scene in London. I come from Canberra, if people know that's the capital of Australia, but it's only got around 500,000 people, and so it's still relatively small, especially compared to London. And I think for me, tech has become so much about diversity and coming into London, that was a great way of widening my perception of the world, and I thought that was where I kind of wanted to grow. And that's why I moved to London.

02:09

When was the first time you made a life changing work decision?

02:16

I think it would be in Australia. So I was working in a public service department, I'm not sure of its name because they change names so often in the public service that you could never keep up, and basically we had the equivalent of GDS starting up. So the Government Digital Service started up in Canberra called the Digital Transformation Office. And I had an opportunity to lead a team, delivery leader team, to deliver on this kind of secondment 20 week project, which was in the space of business and trying to solve real problems that people were having in that business space. And it was life changing because I got to work with people that just opened my perception so much. I wouldn't be here in London if I hadn't done that. But also it took me out of my comfort zone and into a place where I just wasn't familiar.

03:21

We kind of had a lot of different people from a lot of different agencies coming together with this really tight deadline of 20 weeks to go, "Show us what you can do. And by the way, you're going to be working in this approach, which you might not have fully done before." Things like user research I had never done before. And in my first week we got a quick training session and I suddenly found myself in Sydney somewhere with a colleague in a man's house, talking about problems with setting up businesses. And in the end, he started showing us his illegal video recording collection at the end. I just went, "How did I get here? This is amazing."

04:06

And it was just such an eye opening thing where going out, getting out of your comfort zone and then going, actually, this is widening my perspective of the tech world, and also reconnecting with the people who are actually use the technology. And I think it's very easy in tech to sometimes forget who your actual users are, and you have to be really deliberate in reminding people who our users are. Who are we actually doing this for? Which I think is really, really important. So if I hadn't had that experience with the learnings of working with people that had done really well in GDS in the UK and kind of helped me progress in my career, I just don't think I would've been in London right now.

04:50

When you first came to London, you joined Red Badger. How did that come about?

04:53

So I holidayed a bit here before that, and then kind of said, "Actually, I'm going to make the move." And I ended up interviewing over here on one of my holidays and then continued a bit of the interview process as I got back to Australia. And then I got the job and then decided to actually move over to work.

05:17

Interesting. So you were here, tried out, and then you minimize the risk all over the place.

05:26

I am definitely very privileged because I have a British passport, so I kind of knew that I didn't have to worry about tying to a company with any Visa things. So I was really privileged in that space, but I also wanted to just be deliberate about whether it was the right company. It wasn't just about moving over, it was about moving over to do more meaningful work and to get more exposure of the things I'd already been exposed to in Canberra.

05:56

What does it mean to be deliberate when you are choosing where to allocate your time?

06:01

That's a really good question. Probably something I don't do enough. But for me, especially with time, I always remember people saying to me, "If you are saying yes to that, you're saying no to something else." And I always think about that, because I'm always like, "Okay, I can say yes to this, but I've said no to that. Is that where my priorities should lie?" And having that conversation with myself then enables me to go, "Okay, yeah, that is where my priorities lie. And I've made the right a choice." Or, "Actually I haven't. Why haven't I made that decision?" And it could be because I'm scared about something, like moving to another country is still quite intimidating and new and you worry about, "Oh, what if I don't like the job?" Or, "What if I can't find a place to live?" Or, "What if I just don't get the British culture?" So I think for me, it's about examining those reasons and making sure that you understand the trade offs and going, "Actually for me with the information I have at this time, this was the right way to go."

07:10

Do you proactively go through an examination process there? What are you doing in that moment to examine the different aspects of the decision that you're making?

07:26

I would say my values is probably the biggest thing that I rely on. And saying, "Okay, well do these align with my values and my purpose?" So something for me, and a big reason why I chose to work at AcureX now, is I felt that my work could align with my values more, and meaningful work is such a big thing for me that motivates me. And so that decision making process, I'm like, "Well, if I say yes to AcureX and no to something else, what would that mean?" And for me it's like, well actually looking at that, this aligns with my values. This does this. This does that. That's the decision that I want to go ahead with. But I would very heavily rely on my values and my purpose.

08:17

Why was it that it was a health tech company that resonated with you in that moment rather than something else?

08:29

I've been looking at health jobs for a while and just keeping an eye on it. I think going through the pandemic in England was an experience. I spent some of that in Australia as well. Healthcare is such an important industry, pandemic or not, that anything we can do to make that better is something that I wanted to get into. And I guess about five years ago now, I got diagnosed with a chronic illness, and that changed my life as well. It meant putting up limitations I didn't have before. It changed the way I approached work. It's now become a disability because of the way that it's impacted my life. And that means that I have a different kind of lens into health tech as well.

09:33

And in something like in AcureX's case where they do a lot around communication in that patient centered design, I have experienced so many times where I haven't been able to navigate that health system in a way that's actually benefited me. And it's meant that I've stayed sicker for longer. It's meant that I haven't been able to make appointments at certain times. And I feel like I'm in privileged, and I can't even imagine for those who aren't as privileged as I am in some regards, what they're going through. And so everyone needs healthcare. How can we make it better for everyone? And that really, really motivates me.

10:19

To what extent does having a disability and a chronic health problem enable you to do your best work?

10:32

Having a disability has forced me in some ways to become more empathetic I think, because disability is one of those groups that could happen to anyone. You can join at any time of your life, right? Tomorrow someone could have a disability where they didn't have one today. And I really reflected on a lot of the expectations that I had on myself, and really thought about whether I was applying an empathetic lens to different people's situations, and trying to just understand people more. And I feel my disability forced me to slow down quite a bit. My mobility as well as kind of brain tiredness. There's only so much time I can work until I get too fatigued and I have to stop.

11:28

And knowing that that was the lens that was applying to me, I felt I could then relate to others better, and it made me question more and it made me go, "Oh, what are the assumptions I've had in my head around people that are actually not fair? And I need to ask more questions to understand that in a different way." And I didn't do that enough before I became disabled.

11:57

And when you were deciding where to work and whether to join AcureX or not, do you think that your own relationship with your body and with your own health in some way changed the weighting scale that you used when you were deciding what parts of what you wanted to do next and how you're making that deliberate decision? Did it increase the weighting somehow?

12:34

Absolutely. It increased the weighting a lot, especially in healthcare. Who are our users in healthcare? There's going to be a lot of people that are long term sick, have chronic illnesses, disabled, et cetera. If you don't have those voices in a company that are developing services for people that need it, you are going to miss out on insight. You are going to not understand them to then be able to create services that are inclusive, that are thinking about those things. And that to me was a real draw about AcureX, because I felt like me having a disability was actually a real bonus to the company, and I felt like the weighting for me was like, actually, not only they're going to understand me more, but I can do really good things here, because the people that we're serving are people that I feel that I can relate to some of the situations, not all, but some of the situations they may be going through and actually could improve those services as a result.

13:42

It's an interesting thought that if the people who are currently working at AcureX had gone through or went through a similar thought process, where if they themselves had had challenging health problems and they would therefore relate more closely to the user and [inaudible 00:14:03], in some ways you can almost get a sense of what that culture might be like. It might be more empathetic and it might be more aware of our own health. And it's almost as if you can self-select the mission that you want to go on because you know you'll care about the customer. But in another way, you then know that I might have a sense about what this culture might be like because of it, too.

14:25

Absolutely. And I think one of the things that I always... We've just moved building, so we've just moved into quite a large building from our last office, because we've grown, and the way that we then tried to put that accessibility lens on the new building. So there were a few constraints that we couldn't work around because we were kind of inheriting an old building. But the fact that we cared about the accessibility of the building, not just for our current employees, but for people potentially that could join in the future, that to me is something that I really value in a company, that we're open to these conversations, that we understand how we can help try and make everything more inclusive. So it was a real draw.

15:20

What are the downsides to doing purposeful driven work?

15:26

I would say that probably burnout is the biggest one. And I know people describe burnout in different ways, but I think if you're really passionate about what you're doing, for me in particular, it's hard for me to sometimes stop at the end of the day and not think about work. But then especially I have limited energy supplies. I could then end up burning out as a result because that can get quite overwhelming if you are taking energy from the next day, and then eventually that energy's going to run out. And you're like, ah. I think also, you should always be able to do meaningful work and purpose, but your purpose should also lie away from work as well. You need a balanced life. So I've got balance in other things of my life that work's not the be all and end all.

16:26

And I think if you are passionate about something, there is that fear that it could sometimes encompass too much of your life and you need to go, "Hey, actually, remember I've got this I need to invest time in, this I need to invest time in." And that's a good way to get perspective. I find I do that quite often by going out of London. It's a really good way to get more perspective and balance, and as soon as I kind of leave that London bubble, I feel like, "Ah, okay, remember there's other things around." And like that's a really good way I found of kind of trying to remember that your work is meaningful, but it's only one lens in one part of your life as well.

17:13

Other than choosing to work for a company that aligns with your purpose, how else have the health challenges that you've been through improved or enabled you to find more clarity on how you've found your best work and pursued your best work?

17:38

It's been an interesting journey. I think I've had to try and understand what works for me versus what works for previous me, and also what works for other people, and find ways that I can potentially balance out. Sorry. Let me think about this. This one's a hard question.

18:09

It sounds like almost like it's hard enough being self aware as it is, let alone if it's kind of forced upon you like that.

18:20

Yeah. And I think maybe other people would say this, but especially if you've kind of gone in... For me, I would pull a lot of long hours in Australia, and suddenly my body was saying that you can't, you are limited now. Actually, you used to be really good at doing this. Actually, you're having difficulty with that now, because you've got brain fog or you've got tiredness, et cetera. Or you used to be really reliable and come to work very often. And now suddenly you're having sick days that you never used to have. And then you're worried that, what does that mean for people being able to depend on you and being reliable? I think there's so many nuances, and obviously this is just one kind of experience around a chronic illness, that in some regards I've had to go, "Okay, well this is what it looks like now. How do I be okay with it myself?" Because I'm still kind of letting go to like, "Why can't I do that anymore?"

19:27

And then going, "This is okay." And then ensuring I have a environment that says, "This is also okay. And we're confirming that's okay." And finding ways to work with it as well. At my last job, I used to have compressed hours, which was a really good way of helping me manage my time and my energy, I think.

19:53

What do you mean by compressed hours?

19:54

So I used to work 10 days in nine. So every fortnight, I got the Friday off, and what I found really helpful is that there's a lot of things open on Fridays. It's one of those normal work days. And so I felt like I do a lot of chores stuff there, get through that, and then use the weekend to kind of refresh and socialize and do those things that weekends should be about. When I wasn't doing that, I sometimes feel like the weekends are a lot more chores and that, and it doesn't give me that time to refresh after, which I need now more with my chronic illness.

20:39

That's really interesting. I don't want to ask you too many questions about that.

20:45

It's okay. The one thing I would say though, is I definitely think my decision making is my purpose, but my work is not my purpose. If that makes sense, just to clarify. I feel like I want them aligned to what I want to do in life and the impact I want to leave, but I definitely feel like work is just one lens of that.

21:10

And I really think it's a great distinction to make between using purpose and your decision making, but not necessarily letting that purpose rule the [inaudible 00:21:25] working day to day.

21:29

Yeah.

21:29

Is there a reason why you choose that? It's because you want the balance in some way?

21:36

About using purpose in that way?

21:38

Yeah. Why not go all in on it?

21:41

Because I think, maybe this is where my health has impacted, that work is just one lens of purpose, and if things start going wrong and you've only got one thing, work, and things don't go the way that you want them to, they're not running as smoothly, it's very hard for you then to come back and say, "Hey, I'm still doing well in life," et cetera, if you've just got one things in one bucket of work. So that's why it should align with what I want to do in life and it should align with my values, but it's not my reason for being, if that makes sense.

22:22

Our working lives are all more guided by our parents than we would care to admit. Have your parents played a part in the type of work that you pursued?

22:42

Good question. So not directly with the work that I do, but I would say there always expectations on me from school onwards to get into something like IT or doctor or scientist, et cetera. So one of those more academic jobs. Sorry, does that sound bad, actually, now that I've said that? It's a really good question. Yeah. So in terms of getting into IT, they didn't have a direct influence in that. Although a funny story that we did have someone from one of the early copywriting software companies, they actually moved back to the UK, but they stayed with me when I was a kid. And so they created their software company, sold their editing software to the American defense force. And so for me, we had a computer growing up and we were able to play around with it, which was fantastic. So they've always been quite technical savvy, which is why I wasn't unfamiliar with getting into tech, but I think they would've been happy with anything that I chose to do, as long as they felt that I was enjoying it.

24:38

That's such polite answer.

24:40

I feel like there's things I could say. I think it's a really hard one, a nuanced one when it's your parents.

24:48

Yeah.

24:48

And also I think it shows a bit of bias that they have towards certain careers or certain things. And you could say your parents always want you to have a well paying job. But that's out of hopefully care.

25:03

They just want the best for you.

25:04

Yeah. Yeah. Because they want the best for you. So I think one thing that I'm glad about is that in tech, and I think this might be a motivation for a lot of people, is that because it has a good salary, you feel like you are going to be able to support yourself and then support others if you need to as well. So there is that feeling of like, "Actually I'm feeling quite independent," and financially independent, I should say. And I think that's something that tech enables a lot of people to do, which is good.

25:43

It also looks okay to our parents.

25:46

Yeah.

25:47

It's not like we're choosing the particularly rogue path. It's relatively cut and dry in some ways.

25:55

Yeah. I have to think back on lots of stuff. It's a very nuanced answer, I think.

26:08

Are there any other thought experiments that you apply or have been helpful to you that have helped you work through big decisions, like deciding where to work in the past?

26:20

So now I would say my health is a big factor in how I make decisions. So is it going to be an inclusive environment? Are they going to understand and about disabilities? Are they going to work with me to make sure that I find the environment inclusive? That's something that is definitely weighing on my mind now. I think also going through the decisions, it's really important through the hiring process. I found that going through the hiring process gives you a really good indication generally of what the company is going to be like to work at.

27:04

I remember one place that I interviewed at that there was one interviewer which had spent a bit of the interview making me feel bad that I didn't necessarily know the answers or had the answers that he wanted. That was something that ultimately led to me saying no to that role. And I think that's really important, that if the hiring process doesn't make you feel comfortable and you have a think about why that is, that's probably a good indicator that that might not be the right choice for you. And in this case, I'm really glad I didn't go there, because I think if they're doing that to someone that is going through an interviewing process, I don't know what it would be like to work with them. So yeah, I think one thing I would say is going through the interview or the hiring process is a really good decision maker for me as well.

28:04

How do you balance when you are going through the conversations, this search for perfection, but at the same time, this kind of understanding that it's never going to be perfect. How do you know when something's just good enough to be able to make the decision? Because very rarely do we go through an interview process and feel like it's been perfect.

28:32

I think one I am always, how did the interview process make me feel? Which sounds a bit strange, but did I feel like I enjoyed meeting the people? Did I feel like I had transparency at that stage? It might not have ran perfectly, but a really good example of something that happened to me in the AcureX interviewing process is that it was just about a time where it was launching AcuBook, which is booking your COVID 19 vaccines. And basically, I was supposed to be doing an interview with Lawrence, the CTO, and he just got the AcuBook. It was a very busy time and he wasn't able to make that interview, but he actually sent me an email just saying, "I'm so sorry about not being able to make the interview, I'm looking forward to catching up soon," et cetera.

29:30

And there was someone else doing it as well. But just the fact that he had reached out to me, and this is the CTO of a company in the middle of a pandemic launching a vaccination booking system for COVID 19. He had a lot of things on his mind. And just to know that he had time and had prioritized reaching out to me to apologize to not be in that process, I thought was something that really made me feel important and valued. And my time was valued even if I hadn't been hired yet.

30:05

So yeah, I feel like that's an important thing. How did that make you feel? I also think that people should press more on the interview process. So if I'm not decided, have I met my line manager or my potential line manager? Because I should be able to at least meet someone who is teed up. Have I met my other team members that I would be working with? I think as someone who is interviewing, it is okay to ask to learn more about a company as well, that if you have thoughts about, why am I nervous about this? Actually it's because I'm not sure of this aspect. How would I find out more? So I would ask. And I think the way that companies will also reply to those requests will also give you another good insight into the company itself and help your decision making process.

31:05

You used the word feel there.

31:06

Yeah.

31:07

And someone might say, "You know what, when you're making such an important big decision in your life, you should kind of throw that emotion out the window and make a more rational and a more informed decision." Why do you think that you pulled to the way that you feel rather than the way that you think when you are making that decision?

31:35

Because I think that I'm all for listing out trade offs and being quite logical for it. But in the end, if my feelings are saying something, it's usually because I've had an indication that I haven't been able to verbalize, and it is an indication that something isn't right here, and that's why I will use it. I think it's the combination of the two, but I definitely think that if you are in something and you are feeling like, "Actually I haven't felt respected by this," or, "I haven't felt included in this," et cetera, that to me does play into that logic part. Trade off. There's something there saying this isn't an inclusive organization to work for. And that's something I value in an organization. Or there's something else that's giving you that's not the place that you should be working.

32:28

What steps do you take to try and understand the inputs that you can't verbalize?

32:34

I would generally try and discuss it with someone that I trust. And a lot of the time it might be them asking me a question to go, "Oh, that's why I felt this way. Thank you. I can now verbalize that."

32:48

Yeah.

32:52

I use peer support to do that. I'll also try and see if there's something that might have impacted me in the past and it's making me uncomfortable, and think about that and go, "Actually, I've got other indications that this wouldn't happen." So that's how I would make the decision. So I think always having someone trusted to talk to who can actually ask you the hard questions and actually give you an opinion, even if you don't like it, that is very, very valuable, especially when you're making a decision about places to work.

33:31

And typically, is that a friend? Is that a family member? Is that a acquaintance? What's been the perfect person for you?

33:42

It's actually been a combination of a few.

33:47

Let's all get on the same Zoom call and all talk about it.

33:53

So it's depended on the job and some of the context. So for decision making, I would be looking for someone in my industry. So a colleague, maybe it was someone I worked with at a previous job. Maybe it's someone that I look up to and I have as a mentor. I would be talking about it with them, because I feel like they can provide a lot of insight around that career aspect for you, which your loved ones might not be able to provide that same type of feedback.

34:30

Are these people that you know anyway?

34:34

These are people that I know anyway. I think one of the really fortunate things I've had, is that I think every job I've been to, I've left with trusted colleagues from there that I still keep in touch with. My first graduate job, I still have friends that I talk to regularly from when I started. And for me, there are people there I can go, "This is a new job. This is what it would look like. What do you think?" And then obviously for that personal aspect, you talk with your loved ones, your partner, getting that, "How do you think you'd feel going to this job?" And kind of more that they know you in a different way.

35:24

So they're not even just looking at, "Actually this job may grow your career in these ways," but it's actually, "I think you'll really enjoy doing this aspect of the job. That really aligns," or even things like, "Actually, is this going to be too full on job?" It might be there's expectations that you travel a lot or something else and your loved ones are going to have a better insight into you there to be able to give you advice and maybe ask those harder questions. So I would use a combination of both.

35:59

Have you ever had a circumstance where you've spoken to those people in order to try and verbalize the inputs that you can't necessarily understand yourself, and you've ended up with everyone agreeing with you?

36:12

No, I don't think I've had everyone always agree with me, but I also think I've had to make some tough decisions because some of those jobs mean living in a different country. And I don't think I've aligned people on everyone being in London or in Canberra. So I also value their perspective, but it kind of doesn't matter if they agree with me or not unless it's personally impacting them. So I want to understand their viewpoint and I value that, but I don't feel like they would tell me no or yes, they would just give their insight and it's up to me to make that decision, because the impact is on me.

36:59

What role has reading played in your search for finding work?

37:05

I think that's a really interesting one because of the way I think information's changed now. So I'll do a lot of reading, but I'll read a lot of blogs. I'll read a lot of tweets. I have books that I'll have to understand more about certain topics, but for me, some of the real learning now is understanding more from forums like Twitter and having a diverse set of people that I will read and follow, and subscribing to certain newsletters and blogs, which I feel doesn't only help me better at my job at the moment, but it also helps me understand those outside perspectives.

37:55

And again, helping making those kind of important decisions, whether it's looking for a new job or whether it's how to make the career that you've got at the moment better. I think that's also due to the information overload that we kind of have at the moment as well, and trying to get focus time for reading. I found that the best way I have for consuming knowledge at the moment is those kind of more shorter takes, which then go, "Oh, that's really interesting. How can I find out more?"

38:28

Yeah. Perhaps my final question is how do you day to day practically balance both the inner gut feelings that you have when you're making these decisions and those feels, and the kind of external knowledge that you can get from places like Twitter and from knowledgeable conversations with your friends and peers? Where do you find the meeting ground between the two in order to make the right decisions?

39:01

I think it's all about understanding the different perspectives. So some of the people that I will follow on Twitter actually don't have, I would say that I would actually disagree with quite a lot of what they say. But I need that perspective to see the other side. And I think day to day it's, for me, taking in data points and kind of going, "Cool, that's from there, that's maybe some of the bias they may have. This is from my loved ones. This is some of the bias they may have. This is from somewhere else. This is some of the bias they have." And putting it together, but understanding some of where they're coming from with their opinions and then thinking, "What is the decision that's going to be authentic for me?"

39:51

Because I think very often in our career, we are told, "Oh, you need to do this more." Or one example would be maybe there's a colleague that you are potentially conflicting with on some aspect. And [inaudible 00:40:12] oh, go out for a coffee or do something like that. For me, that might not look the same way. That might not be authentic about how I would navigate that. Maybe for me, it's like, actually I'm going to pick a piece of work and we're going to work on that together and get to know each other that way. And for me, it's around getting different data points, but then going, what's going to be an authentic decision for me? Because at the end of the day I have to live with it. I've just tried to get a nuanced view to then see how that applies to me and what looks true to me.

40:47

Your story is as authentic as you are.

40:55

Thank you.

40:58

I really enjoyed it. Really enjoyed it. And in some ways it's really special, off record, but just hearing your... I don't know, life gives us certain gifts at certain times, doesn't it?

41:11

Yeah.

41:11

And I recognize that there's a large part of that. A lot of your life that is not necessarily feel like it's a gift.

41:21

Yeah.

41:21

But it's so wonderful to talk about it in such positive, beautiful light.

41:28

I really do feel privileged. I wouldn't be here again where I am now without having that experience and going through it and yeah. Again, I'm still a very privileged person. I acknowledge that privilege, so yeah, it's been great even having more empathy for others. Like for me, that is such a great gift that I can put myself in other people's shoes more.

41:58

Yeah.

41:59

Understand different issues. I wouldn't have done that before.

42:04

And you are living your truest life.

42:07

Hopefully.

42:10

There's no debate.

42:11

Well, hopefully. I mean, I could always do better. I will definitely say I can always do better.

42:15

Yeah, ditto.

42:15

Yeah.

42:16

Ditto.

42:18

But thank you so much.