Finding work spontaneously - Theo Chichirita

00:00

I just started applying to hundreds and hundreds of job offers and I didn't get any. Enrolled to university. I started studying computer science and in the meantime, I also got one of those half apprenticeships where they teach you, they make a course and then they give you to a company. It's like a bootcamp, but it was for COBOL. This very old, from the fifties, programming language, some guys retire, some guys just die so they needed someone to do the thing. And then that's how I got my first job and I was so happy. I was like, "Wow." The second one, it was even funnier. I literally just walked across in a coffee shop and then over there, there was this guy with this computer with all these stickers.

00:56

I was like, "Wow, that's such a nice sticker. What is that?" And the guy's like, "Oh, you don't know Github?" I was like, "No, I work with COBOL." And the guy was like, "Oh we are looking for developers." And he was like, "No, that's literally..." And then I went to do an interview. The guy was like, "Look, if you tell me you want to try it and you know how this stuff works. I'll give you a chance." And we play foosball, I won and he was like, "Fine. You're in the team." And that's how I got my real developer job. Changing jobs, or finding new position is an ongoing process. The way I see it, there's two parts of it.

01:44

You can sit on this side, on the other side, but in the end it's the same thing. And I always send something very similar from what you said, where it's this chat box, an Intercom in your brain where you'd be like, Hey, you are doing your stuff. You're working or browsing websites and sometimes it just pops up and be like, "What about?" Or, "How is it going?" Or, "What is out there?" It's just always there. It's not something that... I'm quite young. I'm quite lucky for where I am right now. But I realize that from previous generations like my parents, the work was a different thing. It was, you basically go to school, finish, learn something, make a decision and then you find the job and you will just spend your whole life there until your work life is done.

02:45

And that will be the people you're going to work on, the projects. What you are going to basically become good at and go ahead and do it. There wasn't much change. There was no infrastructure. There were no capabilities, even the world was different. But nowadays, literally everything is the opposite. You can just go and have access and see everything.

03:15

It's crazy to me even more in the tech world. I always realized, it took me a little bit, but at some point I realized that the tech world is a bubble that sits on top of all the workforce where everything has a beginning and it might happen here. Same thing happened with remote working or finding new work and the freedom that people have when they work and at the workplace and the type of thing they do. And the more time passes, the more I realize that, it started spreading also in different industries and stuff like that. The funniest thing for me is that when... In my first job in London, which was four, five years ago now, I came in as a junior developer and I was so excited to start my London journey as a dev.

04:18

And I come in, I was part of this big corporate and all the devs, all the dev team, they were these nerds in a room, just messing around in the morning with computers and then go play some ping pong, have lunch together and then go back and messing around with computers and we had LAN parties and we'll play around and everybody was friendly. And then I was like, "Wow, this is crazy. It's actually working," Right? And then, I realized that looking at the other parts of the business was completely different. I was like, "Why is not everybody having fun?" And then slowly that culture, that was formed into the developer team, it starts moving across also different parts of the business. And people get more used to everybody else. And it's just like, you see differently how you perceive, what you're doing, with who you're doing and why you're doing it. And it's not just, Oh, come in the morning, have a task, do it, clock out in the evening.

05:35

We do definitely take for granted our... The work of the people who have gone before us. How do you go about remembering that you come after all of this work from time gone by?

05:51

Yeah, no, I mean that's the thing, for me, has never felt work. I've always been nerd since I remember. I always had to do with computers and electronics and stuff that so it makes sense that my life will drive me in front of a screen at some point. But when I actually start working and actually having a real job and building products and stuff like that, it made me realize that it's just... It's part of the person you are. And then it's part of something else that you are. And it depends, right? Because when you first start, you want to learn, you want to get involved with other people, you want to be part of things and you want to get access to as many things as possible.

06:43

And then the more you advance it also become, starting to understand how things should be done. You take ownership of things and then you start to have your own ideas and move forward. And I don't think there is a time where you are the same person, even if you do the same job, even if you work on the same thing, even if you are in the same company, at least nowadays in our industry, things moving so fast that even just taking a break for a little bit, everything will be changed. So it's actually quite hard, remembering every single thing you do or you have to do. But I think it's more about being able to do something instead of looking at it as like, "Oh, I did it, I will do it again."

07:43

How have you gone about finding work in the past? What's been your process?

07:46

I've tried different things. I try to approach it the way I approach work, trying things until something works, not giving up, the real developer mindset. I remember in the beginning, my first job actually is quite funny, I didn't know how to write a CV. I didn't know what I was supposed to do. Didn't have any connections. So I just started applying to hundreds and hundreds of job offers. And I didn't get any, well, I got two interviews and I didn't get accepted. I was like, "Something is wrong. I have to change it." So I enrolled to university, I started studying computer science and in the meantime, I also got one of those half apprenticeship where they teach you, they make a course and then they give you to a company.

08:47

It's like a bootcamp, but it was for COBOL. This very old from the fifties, programming language, some guys retire, some guys just die. So they needed someone to do the thing. And then that's how I got my first job and was so happy, I was like, "Wow, that's crazy." Just randomly popping up and then one second one was easier because I knew that I could get it and then as soon as you know that you can do something, then it's much easier for you to hearing the no's or trying to do better in an interview. And then the second one, it was even funnier. I literally just walked across in a... Sorry, in a coffee shop. And then over there, there was this guy with this computer with all these stickers. I was like, "Wow, that's such a nice sticker. What is that? And the guy's like, "Oh, you don't know GitHub?" I was like, "No, I work with COBOL." And the guy like, "Oh we are looking for developers." And he was...

09:58

You are kidding me.

10:01

"No, That's literally..."

10:03

So he hires you?

10:04

And then I went do an interview. Yeah. So basically, I went to do an interview and the guy was like, "Look, if you tell me you want to try it and you know how this stuff works, I'll give you a chance." We played foosball and I won and he like, "Fine. You're in the team." And that's how I got my real developer job. And then after that, I was already in the group. So I start building the more usual stuff.

10:37

It is crazy. literally that's how I got my actual first developer job. And it was a junior position and that's what people really look for in my opinion, when you hire someone. You look someone that you are willing to work with that is nice and has the energy to put the time. I didn't know anything, not a single part of the tech stack. And then it took me two weeks to learn it and be able to build stuff. And obviously, you have to work with people that are willing to teach you and willing to help you. But that's the whole point of being a junior developer and just putting the energy, putting the time and you will find someone who is more than welcome to show you around.

11:25

Yeah.

11:26

Then after that moving faster in the career. Until now I've never sit in the same position for a year. My maximum time in a company was 11 months. So that point about always changing jobs and always looking what's there, it really hit me because that's what I did. When I moved to London, I was like... Every time I was looking for a new challenge. I was looking for working with smarter and smarter people. And I was looking to learn as many things as I can. And as soon as you start getting comfortable, you start looking outside for something more.

12:11

Did you continue you to look for work in that scattered fashion after that point?

12:16

So I always kept an eye out. I always try to see if there's opportunities around without actually getting too involved. But obviously at least in London, or in big tech hubs, there's also processes that most of the people use. Moreover, if you are interested into a corporate career or getting into a big team then the thing that worked for me the most was getting access to LinkedIn. And even if my ability to create the CV or put everything nice and structured, LinkedIn and being able to connect on a one on one basis with people was keep... It went from me stumbling across these occasions or word of mouth or people I used to know to literally just getting access to everybody I would look forward to.

13:29

And I think something that more people should do is trying to use LinkedIn to connect, on a direct basis. Something that you guys are doing basically. Getting that chat thing, getting someone that you really look forward or up to, and then try to chat with them, ask for... Not just ask for a job, but how do you get there? For me, I think like, at least in the beginning, something that really helped me was getting in touch with the people that was doing what I would like to do and try to talk to them. And most of the times they will offer me job which is crazy. When people see that you are interested and you have the skill set, there is nothing else that is necessary to do.

14:24

And that's why I like court. I hate interview process. I hate technical tests and stuff that, both to do them and looking through it. But court gives you that ability to speak to each other and I think that's very important. When you do a tech job, when you have to deal with developers and you have to build very technical stuff, being able to communicate and be able to understand how people work is the biggest priority. You can learn coding, different programming language, or you can get good at system architectures and stuff like that. But there's something more internal and it's how people behave with each other. And that's key to me. And that's why I like chords. It gives you the ability to connect.

15:25

Why did you join Antler?

15:27

So Antler happened very randomly. So obviously working through different jobs and being this developer, I moved in my career in building stuff and always working on Greenfield projects and getting the idea of how to structure things from the ground up I always had in the back of my mind, "Hey, why... Or when actually, when should I start thinking about doing something on my own?" But obviously I have no clue. Starting a startup is much different than just building a product. So I started looking around and then I think it was through Stack Overflow. I have an account with one question answered and someone dropped me a message and was like, "Hey, would you be interested to join as a technical founder of this thing? Come join us."

16:33

And I was like, "Why not?" I wasn't really planning to do it because I just accepted a consultancy job, two months prior. So I was like, "Ah, fuck it. I will just do the application." And for some reason I get through, I was like, "What do I do now?" And I like interviews. I always feel it's something that most people are scared of, but in my opinion, it's once you understand what's going on, it becomes fun. It puts you in a place where like, "Hey, let's see how you're doing. Let's have a conversation." And I really liked who interviewed me at Antler and convinced me to join than all the way around. And I was like, "Yeah, let's give it a try.

17:30

How'd that go?

17:31

That's basically how I said goodbye to my corporate life and I started this whole startup journey. It's a completely different thing. I don't think people realize how different is your whole life when you work a normal job, or when you work in a startup. I'm talking more early stage startups, obviously. But even if you are an employee, your whole life will have a different speed, a different velocity and everything will just happen. And I think that's what I liked more about antler. The fact that I get to hang out with amazing people. Everybody has amazing pedigree. I had the opportunity to work together with some brilliant minds and build very cool things. And I'll be forever grateful.

18:33

And it doesn't even matter in the end how it goes until... While you are actually doing things. In my opinion, the thing that I the most about antler for me was fact that I get the opportunity to get to look at everything in a new way and work even if it never felt work for me beforehand, because it was just this stuff with computers, just building things, everybody's happy. It became even more. It's just the ability to actually change things, make something yourself.

19:13

How was your own definition of doing your best work changing during this process?

19:18

Personally, since I moved into this whole startup world and thing, I think my best work it moved to actually building something meaningful for someone. That someone can be someone you care of, the people that you have around, the world, yourself, doesn't really matter. But the ability to look at something that you put your time, your energy, you come up with... You have a problem and you come up with a solution, you just change what you're actually doing. You're not spending your time on something because you have to do it. But it's something that it has an objective that is extrinsic to you. It makes sense. Even if I stop, working at Playter tomorrow, Playter will still be there. It will still provide value and it'll make life easier for lots of people.

20:26

I don't care. I'm transitory in this whole process, but at the same time Playter wouldn't been the same if it wasn't for me or anyone else who's in the team. And that's what I like about startups is that there's no company, there is no product, there is no sales, there's nothing without the people. The startup will grow, if the people will grow. The product will be built, if the people are building it, everything happens because the people are there. And when you're in corporate, you have this mindset being just part of this whole engine, but in the startup, every single person is the startup. And it's the same thing on the other way, if something goes bad or if you feel bad, the startup will start going down. So it's much, much closer approach to yourself and the work you do and obviously being proud and doing something that you love it'll resonate into also the work that you do.

21:38

What's been the hardest moment of your startup journey?

21:43

I think it was realizing that my first startup was failing and having to accept it. And it's pretty hard when you are the startup, right? Because it is not just accepting that something is not working out or the work is not getting done or we don't get enough investments and stuff like that. It's just that you or the people are not working. So you end up doing two things, you either overwork yourself until you burn out or you end up just drifting away very slowly. For me, it was the first one. And I started overworking and getting too much into it. And after that, I basically burned out. I didn't believe there was a burnout. I thought "Oh, I'm into startups. I'm going to work 20 hours a day. That's why I'm here. This is the mindset I have to keep." And it didn't change anything.

22:55

It was accepting that moment and actually it's something that... Something very good that came out of it is that going through that whole burnout process, it made me realize that when you build the culture and you build a work environment, you have to take care of the people as your first priority, as long as people are happy and they feel they are doing what they have to do, then everything else will follow accordingly.

23:28

When did you know that you were burned out?

23:30

So I actually didn't realize I was burned out until six months after being burned out. So my first startup, basically we... I decided to leave it aside after a year of trying and the following six months, just the usual, just take a contract to pay the bills, trying to get back in shape and just not being able to focus on anything. I would've just spent this time, working on my side projects or doing stuff or learning new things but I couldn't do anything of that. I was just like, "It's gone." The idea of work is not work is just what I naturally do, it wasn't there anymore. Work became that thing that I had to do to pay the bills. And it struck me when I stopped doing it. I was like, "That was the time where I couldn't do anything even if I wanted to do it." I would sit down, be like, "You know what? Now I would look at what new things people have built."

24:47

And I would just scroll through it two minutes. I was like, "I don't care." So I think it's a different thing because people don't realize, I didn't realize what was the actual meaning. I thought once you have the energy and the will and it's something that you are meant to do in your life, it'll be there forever, but it's not. So you have to be very careful to keep that flame, that spark, that something that motivates you every single day, because that's basically what drives everything else.

25:26

How do you know where the balance is? It's so difficult when the art successful startups is not giving up?

25:35

It is hard. I think the balance, it's much more an intrinsic question than extrinsic. As long as you feel motivated and as long as you feel that's what you want to do. You can spend as much or as less time as it's needed. I think people can do much more work in half an hour of full focus than they can do in a whole day of just having to do it. This is obviously true for developers who found themselves just stuck in a problem and then they slip and they come up with a solution. So this to me accounts also for everything else. If I wake up in the morning and I feel like, "Hey, you know what, this is one of those days and I'm going to just get stuff done."

26:30

Then I know that it doesn't matter if I skip lunch or I work until late because I don't feel it. But if I wake up and I say, "You know what, it's not the day. I don't try to overdo it." Because if I try to overdo it'll sling across the other day and it will drive me through and there's no point. That's when it starts to get scary because you do things because you have to instead of because you want to.

26:58

Have your passions changed since your burnout? Or have they come back in the same form that they were in before?

27:11

I think they changed, but it wasn't a different thing. It's just a new version. It's learning a new language, but being able to say the same things. For me, it's just, I don't feel any change from the person I was two years ago from, from my work ethic other than now I know how to not lose it, thing. Or I know a little bit more about what I should be careful and not just rush into every single thing as I used to.

28:04

You said that there was a difference between following your internal motivation and your... And the external motivation around you. How do you balance those two on your own search for work?

28:20

I'm in a very lucky position because I'm young. I don't really have any other external things that worries me more than I need to. So at least for now, I really just try to follow my heart and just say that's what I want to do. This is what I feel is the right thing to do and it merges into one thing. And I just as long as I can focus on it, I will try to keep... I think it's much more important getting to a point where you can focus on something and start getting into that zone than it is... Than it is keeping it. Starting and bootstrapping things is very hard, but once you start getting into something, everything becomes much easier. And even something unrelated to it, it becomes much more defined because you know what to place and you know how everything else would match into it.

29:28

It strikes me as you've gone through a conversation that you have had a really clear idea about what your heart's telling you to do in those moments, is that right?

29:47

I mean, look, I'm going to be honest. There's been moments where I was like, "What the fuck am I doing?" Is this a waste of time or stuff that. But the point is that everybody has those days, everybody has those ups and downs. Moreover, when you do what we do. And I think it's normal, you have to accept this stuff and as soon as you accepted it, that there's always going to be that thing in the back of your mind that like, "Hey, is this the right thing? Is it not?" As long as you look for forward and you don't focus too much on, what's happening now you'll be able to keep your way and go forward. And that for me helped me quite a lot because when I got stuck, I didn't really know what to do, stuff like that. But as soon as I started looking forward to the next thing, or what I was supposed to do, everything became clearer. And just one step at a time you start moving more and more.

30:52

How does your own journey influence how you build Playter now?

30:59

That's a good question because every time I think about the work I did, a year ago, or two years ago, I cringe a bit. Be like, "Oh my god, how did I get away doing that?" Right? But that means, at least to me, that I get the chance to learn to do it better. So all the things that happened, my career helped me make a bunch of points that I try to do the right way with Playter and also at the same time, I realized that I'm pretty dumb. So my best bet, at least for now is trying to find people that know better than me. And the ability to merge these two things together where if I have experience into something where I have a clue of how to do it, I'll try to do it myself or try to bring this point in and on the other side, instead of trying to do everything by myself and try to always find a solution is try to look outside and not even accept, actually chasing what is the better way to do it.

32:21

How do you think you'll go about finding your best work in the future?

32:24

Personally, I think it's that ongoing process. My hope is that I'll be able to keep learning, keep improving the way I do things, the way I interact with people and the way other people interact with me. And I hope that I'll be able to move towards a more people approach. I come from a very technical background. I always sit in front of computers. Every time there was a solution, I would just sit in front of a computer until something worked. But the more time I spend, I look forward to get more to work together and to work with people and get people also to feel comfortable working with me.

33:25

I've loved hearing your story Theo. Thanks for sharing it.