Refugee to Founder - Rami Kalai

00:00

We had this meeting with a potential client for Quanterium. And I think that was the moment we knew we just had to pivot. And on the way there, it was me and my co-founder in the tube. One of the components of the Quanterium platform was this messaging component where traders could chat to each other. It had felt like we were barking up the wrong tree. You feel it sometimes, and it's difficult. But that day, on the tube, we just looked at each other... This was on the way to the meeting and we just knew. Regardless of how that meeting went, we knew we had to do something else. And we had seen an ad for something messaging related on the tube in the London Underground. And we both looked at each other, we were like, "Maybe we should just double down on that angle of this, and forget all the regulated stuff, all the trading, all the FinTech side of that business and let's maybe look at the communication and the messaging side."

00:59

There aren't too many people who make the decision straight out of university to go and build a company. Had you always wanted to do that?

01:10

Yes. Definitively, I can say yes for sure. I think for me, the allure of a very creative work environment was something that I just could not resist. And I felt that working on my own thing was the most creative possible environment, because it was really up to me to define what that was, what to pursue, what industry to pursue and so on. So I think in that regard, I always knew I wanted to do my own thing. I did a very short stint, working at a bank in software engineering. It was a six month placement, and I enjoyed it. It was all right, but it lacked that element of creativity. It was very clear to me at that point that, this is definitely something I wanted to do.

02:01

And I think something that relates really to who I am, to my character I would say is, I want to say there's an element of risk appetite, but actually as things have progressed and maybe this is just with hindsight, but I feel like people sometimes overestimate the amount of risk that is required when it comes to building a startup. And it's not all people. I think there are some cases where it is overestimated. But that's just my thoughts on it.

02:38

How did you go about evaluating the risk when you started?

02:44

Naively, just straight in, to be honest. For me, there was actually a decision to be made. I had a return offer to that bank. I had done my placement in my penultimate year at university. And generally, if you do well enough, they'll give you a return offer once you graduate, to come back. And I had that return offer. But by the time I was due to go back to that bank, we had already started our startup. We were working on that. We hadn't raised any money just yet. And so, there was this decision, "Do I take this leap of faith? I don't have any money. I don't have any income, and just try and see where this goes." We were fundraising at the time. We actually were raising a pre-seed round, and we could feel that it was very close. But as I'm sure you know, you don't want to have all of your eggs in one basket with fundraising. There's always a risk it doesn't happen. But I guess I took that risk and it worked out.

03:53

Did you go all in on Compose... Or Quanterium, it was then? Did you go all in on that before or after you turned down going back to the bank?

04:05

No, it was Quanterium at the time. We've actually pivoted to building Compose today. We were actually called Quanterium. And that's another story we can dive into if you like. But I had turned down the offer. So in my final year of university, we had started working on the startup, Quanterium, at the time. And it was really my full-time thing. I completely neglected my studies. I'm honestly a bit surprised I managed to graduate that final year. So by the time that I had to make that decision on the offer, I'd already committed at least my time. All of it was really sunk into the startup. So I was invested emotionally. I was invested with all my time. And so I knew it had to be done.

05:01

Someone's perception of starting a company is that, the risk is high. When actually, perhaps the risk is slightly lower. But in your case, it was just like, "Well, I'm in it anyway."

05:13

Yeah. This is what I was trying to say. I am a risk taker, personality wise, I think. More so than maybe the average person. But I was in it anyway. Yeah, I was happy to take that risk. I think in hindsight, I learned that actually... or my perception of that risk evolved. Having talked to more people in the VC space, investors, other founders. Looked at both success and failure stories and how that plays out on a variety of scales, with a variety of colleagues and friends. And that's where I started adjusting my perception of that risk. And, I compared myself to some of my classmates who maybe didn't go down that entrepreneurial route, went down a more classical, corporate path and maybe always wanted to do something startupy, but were put off by that risk. I felt that in that case, maybe they were overestimating the risk a little bit. At least now, that's how I see it.

06:16

It must have made pivoting Quanterium into Compose a bit different, all that happened.

06:26

That is a great question. I mean, for a lot of people who hear about our pivots, it's a bit shocking at face value. But trust me, it does make sense. So Quanterium was a crypto startup. We were building a platform for institutional OTC trading. And Compose is a productivity app that brings together all your different inboxes into one app. So drastically different at face value, but there is some chronological logic here. There is chronology.

07:04

To start off, I think fundamentally, the reason we pivoted was that, there was a lack of founder-market fit. We were excited about the market, but we weren't necessarily the best people to tackle it. I think we underestimated the regulatory legal challenges, and just how big a proportion of... That core business challenge you're solving was going to be the regulatory and legal challenge. None of us are lawyers or have any sort of extensive legal background. So that's something we kind of underestimated, I think, building an institution, crypto trading platform. Which, sounds a bit silly now, but yeah.

07:44

It takes a huge amount of self-awareness to figure out when to change jobs, based off your own self and your own interests and passions. But it must take an even greater amount of self awareness to change the direction of your company, based on who you are and what your passions are. How did you deal with that emotional turmoil at the time?

08:13

You're right. It wasn't easy, by any measure. It was a lot of soul searching for sure. And I think, this is one of those cases, or one of those situations where having a great co-founding team, I think really comes into play. Having great co-founders who you can sympathize with, who can sympathize with you and we can bounce off each other and make sure we're keeping things in line, as far as what's in the best interest of the company. But also supporting each other along that route, because that might not be the easiest route to walk along as a person, as a human.

08:54

If I recall, looking back at it, we had this meeting with a potential client for Quanterium. And I think that was the moment we knew, we just had to pivot. And on the way there, it was me and my co-founder in the tube. We were on the tube. And one of the components of the Quanterium platform was this messaging component where traders could chat to each other. And it had felt like we were barking up the wrong tree. You feel it sometimes, and it's difficult. Obviously, there's that saying where, founders never quit. You have to keep going and push and push and push. But having gone through it, I think there are things you can look out for that can maybe help you distinguish between when to quit and when not to quit.

09:50

But that day, on the tube, we just looked at each other, this was on the way to the meeting, and we just knew. Regardless of how that meeting went, we knew we had to do something else. And we had seen an ad for something messaging related on the tube, in the London Underground. And we both looked at each other and we were like, "Maybe we should just double down on that angle of this and forget all the regulated stuff, all the trading, all the FinTech side of that business. Let's maybe look at the communication and the messaging side." And that's really how that pivot started. And that's where it sort of evolved. And here we are.

10:32

How did you check against that bias that we all have that, the grass is always greener? How did you make sure that when you were making that decision, you weren't just getting out of the pain that you were in, in that moment?

10:48

I think, we felt like it was time to make that pivot. And we had great early investors who we were able to be very honest with and very transparent with very early on. First Minute Capital led our proceed, that was the very first round we raised. And it was a small amount of cash, but it was really what got us going. So we went back to the drawing board, we sat them down and we said, "We think this is probably, not the best path for us, for this team." And I still remember, they told us, "Well, we've backed you as a team, mainly," because it was a very early stage deal. "We've backed you as a team. We love how you do things and your energy. And we'll back you in this new thing. But let us know how it pans out. Let's see what you want to do." So we went back to the drawing board and then Compose was born and they were extremely supportive.

11:49

And I actually remember, one thing they did mention, they said... Up to that point, and even beyond that, we were still running on the pre-seed money, once we had made the pivot, for a good while. And it was really towards the end of that runway. And we managed to really squeeze the lemon. And I remember having a chat a few months down the line, after we had done the pivot with one of the partners at First Minute, and they said, they actually refer to us as the "cockroaches" in their investment committee, because they hadn't seen any team survive all these apocalyptic events in an early startup's life, and managed to pull through. So we're very proud of that. We wear that as a badge of honor. Apparently, they now ask in their ICs, "Is this team, are they going to be cockroaches? Will they survive?"

12:47

What do you think makes the best cockroach?

12:54

Perseverance. Perseverance, perseverance. We were perseverant. We did make a pivot, but we persevered. It's not that we weren't perseverant. There's some level of... It's tricky. I think it's tricky, because being a cockroach means different things to different people. The level at which you can really, "Let's live on tin beans," there are different levels. And for some people it might not work. But I think it's a mindset. You have to be financially responsible and really understand your management account. It sounds a bit boring, but understand your runway and your monthly burn and your costs. And just be comfortable making hard decisions, when the going gets tough. And really turn down the lights and make sure you're steering the ship through the storm, I guess. It sounds very anecdotal, but I think it's very much on a case by case basis. But it's really all about persevering through it. And building a framework that allows you to persevere without burning out, is extremely important, I'd say.

14:23

It's interesting that we began that conversation by talking about your pivot. In other words, a decision to quit and start something new. But yet, we ended it with your investors saying that, you never give up and that you've got complete perseverance. Why did they not think the opposite?

14:42

I think at the early stages of a startup, the only thing that you can really bet on, and this is especially true from a venture capitalist perspective, is the team, because a lot can change in the early days. And this is something I still tell our team today, seed stage startup is about experimentation. It's about, "Let's hypothesize. Let's follow it through, and if it works, it works. Let's double down." If it doesn't, the sooner you're onto the next hypothesis, the better. And so I think a pivot is really that, at a very high level. And so, when you're a pre-seed company, these things happen in a lot of cases. There are many options that we could have gone down. We could have called it quits and just returned whatever was left of the money to investors and said, "Well, let's wind this down. It didn't work." But I think in that regard, we persevered through the experimentation, through the hypothesizing. We tried something, it didn't work. We tried again and again and again, and then something did stick.

15:50

What stuck? What came next?

15:53

Compose. Compose stuck. I'll tell you a bit about how it came about. We talked about that messaging component, but really what we realized, in that time, trying to build something in the crypto world, we did take away some very valuable insights. We saw that, that workflow was very fragmented. When you're trading large blocks of crypto at an institutional level, at least back then, you had to use like five or six different platforms that weren't necessarily built for purpose, very clunky to use. You're placing a $4 million Bitcoin order on WhatsApp. The trading desk jumps on a Zoom call with you to verify your identity. They want to see if it's you on the video. They'll use a spreadsheet to document the trade. They'll lock in the price. They'll send it back on WhatsApp.

16:48

And so that problem, we sort of started taking a step back from FinTech, from crypto. And we saw that, actually workplace communication is pretty fragmented. If you think about what an inbox means today, it's not just your email anymore. Back in the day, an inbox meant your email inbox, no one really questioned it. But today, an inbox means so much more for teams. It's your email, it's your team messaging. Something like Slack, or maybe Microsoft Teams. It's your GitHub, if you're a developer. Figma, if you're a designer. Cord, if you're a recruiter. There's just so many inboxes you have to be on top of. And sometimes, one project sits across, 3, 4, 5 different platforms. How do you keep on top of all that? Things like real time collaboration has accelerated this trend. You have more collaborative tooling that requires an inbox, so that when you're not collaborating in real time, you need to be notified of updates of changes.

17:53

Notion is a great example here. You and I could be working on a Notion page, but then I'll clock off and you make some edits. Maybe you ask me a question. Suddenly, Notion has to build an inbox on top of their product. It's not their core value prop, but every one of these platforms has built one. And that's where we think the problem lies really. And that's where Compose comes in. What we're trying to do here is build one inbox that sits across these tools, on top of them. So the user simply connects their accounts, and suddenly they have a view of their project across email, Slack, Figma, Notion and GitHub. So if you're a project manager and an engineer asks a question in GitHub, that's not going to fall through the cracks anymore. It's much easier to triage everything in one place. The experience is uniform. You can snooze notifications, whether they've come in from Notion or GitHub or Linear or Slack or email, till you're ready to handle them. It's things like that, that's what Compose brings.

19:00

How has working on a product that you feel a clearer founder market fit for, and you have a deeper passion for impacted yourself and how you go about your work?

19:15

I think to bring this back to the topic we were talking about at the very start, it creates for a very fulfilling workplace, for very fulfilling work in general. And I think one great thing about a product like Compose is that, we can really dog food the product. We use Compose. It's actually one of the first measures for us of product market fit is, can our team use Compose? And can we glean those benefits of having one inbox? And so it's something that I think myself and all the team feel very excited about, because you have a direct impact. And, we have a channel in our Slack where we flag bugs we encounter, where we flag feature requests we want to see in the product and we prioritize those. And it creates for a far more enjoyable, far more rewarding experience. I think.

20:13

And personally speaking, what difference has it made to your life?

20:19

I mean, a huge difference, frankly. I don't know where to start. It feels like a much better and much bigger opportunity for us to pursue. It feels more fulfilling on a personal level. One of the frustrations we had in the crypto space was that, especially in building for an institutional client was that, you needed to get it right out of the gates. You can't ship anything that's bugged. You just cannot risk client funds on a silly bug. And so iteration cycles were much larger. It was much harder to validate and build and iterate quickly. Whereas now with Compose, there's a lot less shipping anxiety. It's actually something that we felt almost... When we don't ship for a long time, we all feel frustrated. We feel like, "Oh, we've been working on something for far too long now. We just want to close out this project, ship this feature, ship this bug patch and push it out." And so I think on a day to day, it's just more satisfying to have that shorter iteration cycle, and to be more in tune with product feedback.

21:38

What drawbacks do you think it's had on you going straight into your entrepreneurial journey versus finding work?

21:47

I think there's a lot that I've been learning by doing, that maybe I could have learned by observing. I think that's probably the biggest drawback. And that could have maybe short circuited a lot of that learning. Having said that, I think there's a lot of value in experiencing things for yourself and learning by doing. So I see it, really as a double edge sword. It's allowed me to pick up on things that...

22:20

Let's take building a team or managing a team as an example. That's a skill you learn with time. If you go down a traditional career path, maybe you won't start off a manager out of uni. But eventually, 2, 3, 4, 5 years in, you're maybe managing a small team and then a larger team, et cetera, if you're interested in managing. But having to do it now, where we've raised some money, suddenly we have to build a team and make sure they're happy and productive, and everyone's well taken care of, and people work well together, and product momentum is up, and collaboration is good and people are happy. It's meant that, we have a clean slate that we can go off of.

23:05

And we've had the luxury of being able to look at best practice across multiple companies, rather than just having to rely on my own personal experience from a prior role. So I can look at say, how do things work at three or four startups that I know people at? And see how they deal with these things. And relying on your network, to a big extent. And then just trialing things and seeing what works

23:34

Do you think that you've had a heightened sense of imposter syndrome in any way, because you didn't work in a technology company beforehand?

23:43

I think, yes, definitely. I think being a founder, there is some level of it. There's lots of firsts as a founder. I think it's such a unique job. There are lots of firsts, even if you have worked in a company before. How many people have raised funds for a company? It's just such a specific experience. How many people have had full... I don't know, have negotiated salaries and equity and brought on team members? There's so many firsts and you don't know how to do it. There is no playbook. There are Twitter threads you can read, there are blogs you can read. There's lots of material out there, but nothing beats diving in and doing it.

24:40

And I actually think one of the biggest or most important skills for an early stage startup is just the ability to learn very quickly. I think that's probably one of the most underrated skills for early stage startup, regardless of role or seniority. I think being able to learn something new on the fly and adapt very quickly is invaluable.

25:06

Have you been able to find a degree of separation between your own identity and the work of your startup?

25:18

It's difficult. I think about this. I've thought about this very consciously, actually. It's difficult because of how much time I invest in my work. The line between work and life is very blurred, as I'm sure you can imagine. And not in an unhealthy way. I just want to clarify. It's just, when you're this passionate about what you do, it's very difficult to really break those personas down and really separate them. I try to compartmentalize at times, especially when things are a bit more stressful, I try to com compartmentalize. But as far as identity, I think there are many facets to one's identity, and there are certain aspects which do translate from your work to your personal life. And they should in a good way.

26:25

I'll give you a very silly example. I used to run late to social events, but I never run late to meetings, or try to never run late to meetings. And that's translated now into my personal life, and I think it's a good thing. But on the other hand, there are benefits to being able to separate the two. And in some ways, for me, I've almost deliberately separated some aspects of my two identities, let's say, the personal and the work identity, thinking that maybe that was for the best.

26:59

So when I came to the UK, I actually came here as a refugee, and I thought that, that might not be the best background for a founder. And so I kept that separate and I tried to not really focus too much on it. But in some ways it actually is a big reason why I am perseverant, for example, or I have this drive and this ambition in a lot of ways. So even though I felt like maybe I should be separating that, it did trickle through in some shape or form.

27:35

Is there still a part of you that tries to separate it now?

27:38

I mean, I don't open with it. I don't say, "Hi, Rami - CEO, refugee." One big thing that's happened recently for me is, a week or two ago I became a British citizen. So in some ways that chapter is closed, but it'll forever be part of my history. But yeah, I feel more comfortable sharing and it being part of my identity, regardless of whether that's in work or in personal side of things. But early on, it was difficult because you feel like... When you look at business people, let's say, you see CEOs who are dressed nicely and in suits, and it's always very formal. And then when you think about refugee, it's a very different image. And so it's very hard to consolidate those images together, but here we are.

28:45

Now that they're slightly more consolidated, have you seen any advantages to mixing the two, other than the unconscious, where you are perhaps more perseverant?

29:01

I think it helps. As far as hiring, I think, having the awareness for diversity and really across any sort of measure here, whether we're talking gender diversity or ethnic backgrounds or age or education, whatever it is, I think it helps me see the value and the importance of it. Having seen what me, being from a diverse background, what I bring to the table, I can sort of see why diversity is by all means a good thing for business outcomes. Because a lot of the times people think that diversity is something that you do for diversity's sake. But actually, there's a much deeper, much more meaningful reason here. And you for those doubters, there's also a business reason here. If they're not convinced on a human, personal level, there's a business case for diversity. And I think having consolidated those two identities, for me, I see the value in that, or I've seen the value in that firsthand.

30:11

Has it worked the other way at all? Have there been any disadvantages to the-

30:16

Oh yeah.

30:17

...two being closer together?

30:18

Yeah. I mean, when we were fundraising, one of the things I wanted was to... Well, one of the things I didn't want to lose out on was pitching to US investors. And so, I tried to get a visa. They said, "No," to go to the US. Luckily... Well, not luckily. I'm not going to go that far. But the silver lining for us with COVID was that, fundraising moved to Zoom. And so it almost solved that problem for me in a very weird way. But it was just pre COVID, it was just pre COVID when we were just about to go out to raise. We actually postponed that raise because of COVID. But it was just pre COVID, we were just about to go out to raise, and I was like, "Well, I would love to find a lead investor who's in the US, because that'll just be advantageous for us. Maybe it's a bit soon. Maybe we can find the lead for the A that's in the US. That's a US investor. It's never too soon. Why not? Let's try. But I just couldn't get the visa.

31:33

That's just crazy.

31:35

Yeah. So I'm from Syria, actually. And in the US, they had this mandate, I think it was Trump at the time. Was it Trump? I think it was Trump. He has this blanket rejection for anyone who's originally Syrian. And so I knew that going into the visa process. I was like, "You know what? I don't care. I'm going to try anyway. Maybe it works." And the way the US visa process works is that, you have to go do this interview in person at the embassy, and they'll give you a decision on the spot. That's just how their visa process works.

32:12

And so I went, I waited in line, just queuing up. It was my turn. I had my interview and I had a lot of supporting documentation. I said, "I'm a startup founder. I want to go raise funds. I want to be there for two weeks in SF. I'm going to book a bunch meetings, talk to a bunch of people. It's going to, hopefully, economically benefit the US as well as me. So win-win. And then, the agent at the embassy really sympathized with me. And she rejected my visa application, because she had to, because you weren't allowed to approve it.

32:50

But she opened an appeal and she told me, "I really think you should be in the US. I think it's a shame if you don't go there." So she opened this appeal and she said that, it's a very long shot. I'll probably become British and then be able to go there before the appeal even gets resolved. But she wanted to do it, as a matter of principle. And I was like, "Well, sure. But I'm not going anytime soon. Am I?" And she said, "No." But yeah, I thought that was a bit of a disconnect, I guess, between regulation sometimes, and more practical... And the people, I guess.

33:29

What other infrastructure... Infrastructure is the wrong phrase. But have there been any other barriers that have come up against you that seem really trivial?

33:46

I think, most of the barriers were really in my personal life. And I think, in some ways will affect me and my performance, outside of just my personal life. I think the biggest thing was travel. Just being able to go see my parents. That was something that was quite difficult, because I needed visas to go anywhere. I went for, I think, three years without seeing them, and it was very difficult. There was nothing I could do.

34:20

And that at one point, my dad had COVID and he was in the hospital. He was hospitalized. It was quite a severe case of COVID, and I just couldn't see him. Not that I would've been let in. But had things taken a turn for the worst, I couldn't even go and be there with my family. Luckily, he survived and he's a lot better now. But it takes an emotional toll on you. It's just stress. And... Yeah. I think that was probably the biggest thing.

34:57

We also learn so much from our parents and their working lives as we come of age. We soak in their experiences and we copy the things that we like, and we don't copy the things that we don't like. There must have been gaps that weren't filled in there for you.

35:18

Yeah. I mean, my dad was actually... He's very entrepreneurial. He had his own business in Syria. And I think that was probably a big part of my motivation, it was a big influence in my life, and a big part of why I always wanted to do my own thing. But building a business in Syria is very different to building a business outside of Syria. Let me tell you. To give you an idea of what I mean, the legal and the financial infrastructure is just non-existent to a big extent and very primitive. The way you handled, let's say, invoicing, very basic example. Everyone keeps a record of account, and you'll keep a record with your suppliers. And no one pays anyone, and it's just like, "Well, I owe you this much. You owe me that much. And we'll figure it out at some point." And you just net it off over time. And once in a while, you'll settle the books, but it's very trust based. It's all about your reputation in the market, rather than, "Well, here's an invoice and it needs to be paid in 30 days." So that's one big difference.

36:34

The other thing is, we didn't have a stock market in Syria till, I think 2012. So the concept of equity and capital, it was very foreign to me, and it was very exciting. When I was, I think, 16 or 17, I found out about the stock market, and I was like, "Wow, this is amazing." And I think it was around 2013 and I just stumbled across Tesla. I studied electronic engineering, just for reference. And I was always passionate about cars. And so I saw this thing where they were launching a new car called the Model S, and their stock price was around like $30. And I looked at my dad and I was like, "This is going to be huge." And I asked him, "Can we buy some shares?" And he looked at me and he was like, "Well, let's pretend we've bought some shares and let's check back in, in a few months."

37:31

Wow.

37:31

And a few months later, the stock price was like $80 a share. And then at that point he was like, "Well, it seems like it is going to be a thing. Maybe we should buy some shares." And we bought a very small amount of shares, Tesla shares, in 2013. That's how I learned about capitalism and the markets and equity.

37:53

We forget that work lives on top of an infrastructure that was created by the people that have gone before us. It's interesting [crosstalk 00:38:04].

38:04

Yeah. Yeah.

38:04

You are building a company that in some way provides a level of infrastructure for other companies.

38:14

Yeah. I think the big vision with Compose, Compose today is this inbox where someone can jump in, connect their accounts and suddenly have a supercharged inbox experience across all these apps. But really, our big vision here is to build the infrastructure for collaboration and communication. Today, every app, every product has some core UVP. Let's take Notion, for example. Their core value prop is the page and the block. If you're familiar with Notion, you know what I mean. But then they needed to build that inbox on top. They're not delivering value, it's more a table stake that they need to provide to support that core experience.

39:00

And down the line, we want to build the equivalent of Stripe for payments, but for inboxing. So the next Notion in five years time, it should be a no brainer that they just use the Compose SDK. And suddenly, their users have this supercharged inbox experience and they don't have to build it. And it's built into their product. And the user gets one inbox that they can click and jump into that app, and it's just so obvious. It's like Stripe. Today, no one rolls their own payment infrastructure. It's just ridiculous. No one does their own payments. And it should be that ludicrous in five years. No one should build their own inbox just to deliver notifications and messages.

39:52

Yeah. What would you do differently if you were leaving university now?

40:03

I think, and I'm going to plug something that I've found recently, which I love. I think one of the things... A lot of people who leave university don't see the startup world as an option at all. Especially if you are not going to start something, no one sees it as a career path, joining a startup. When you think about it, at least for me, my university experience, even though we studied engineering, the main career paths were finance and consulting. I think just due to being in London. And some brave few went on to further engineering work or academics, but no one looked at the startup world as a career path. And I think that's something that more people should do. People graduating university today should look at startups as that route.

41:01

And actually, we recently worked with this company called Jumpstart. They're based here in the UK, and what they do is, they build that third option for university graduates. So they'll go and do all that recruitment on campus events, et cetera that the banks and the consultancies do, but for startups. And then they match those graduates. They vet them, then they set up startup spotlights, where the startup pitches to the graduates. And then they do this matchmaking and graduates can go straight from university into a startup career.

41:41

Actually, one of our team members, Edward joined us through Jumpstart, and he seems to love it. He tells me he loves it. And I actually spoke to the founder of Jumpstart, and I'm a big fan of what they're doing. I think it's something that I wish I'd seen at university. And I know for a fact, a lot of my colleagues at university would've loved to have seen.

42:05

Thank you so much for sharing your personal story and Compose's story.

42:13

My pleasure.

42:13

It's been really special hearing it, man. Thank you so much.