From NET-A-PORTER to facebook to mother - Sarah Watson

00:00

I was on maternity leave at the time and I already knew that that would be quite a nice time to move on, do something different because I'd been nine years at [NET-A-PORTER 00:00:08]. It's a long time to be at a single company. They contacted me and said they had this opportunity. Obviously I was on maternity leave so I had to kind of wait until afterwards, but they sort of set the seed about this opportunity coming up for a launching. It was just the perfect time. If that happened maybe a year before, I probably would've said no, or maybe even the year after and I'd been somewhere else.

00:27

So someone from Facebook reached out to you personally, whilst you're on...

00:36

Everyone has their own personal journey and there's never this sort of right answer or wrong answer. And just for me, it's been more about circumstance and situation like what point in my life I've been, which has sort of defined which way I've gone. So for instance, big things happen in your life, like having kids suddenly adds a completely other dimension. And suddenly you have maybe a list of values that you followed that you thought were what was really important to you. And then suddenly actually they change. There will be various reasons why that happens. And then you almost have to have a reset. For me, that was quite a big one for me. And obviously I went from working in big corporates, doing very long hours, lots of travel, really exciting stuff that I really enjoyed.

01:27

But after I became a mom, I decided actually I don't want to be spending all my time in other countries. I want to actually be able to get that work life balance, something which is a real challenge. So that's why I'm now at [PinkNews 00:01:40] and PinkNews has been great for me because they've been really accommodating to my situation. And they're really supportive of back to work moms, working flexible hours, doing part-time, all those things that not all employers do and so I think it's when you are at that point, those are those questions you need to be answering.

01:59

When we start out, we think that we control more than we do on our professional journey. Well, when was the first time that something out of your peripheral vision came that you weren't expecting?

02:10

I do think that to a certain point you do have control. And I think it's about tuning in to those things and what you're really enjoying. And I tend to look with rose tinted spectacles at other companies and other places and think, oh, that looks like a really good place to work, that doesn't. But sometimes, it's something that just triggers you to change direction. Like my first company I was at was actually a publishing company and at the time, this was a long time ago when it was the coolest place to work. And it was really fast paced and fun, but situational, like something completely out of control, the company got bought. It was a very... overnight, it was suddenly the vibe changed. It wasn't where I was used to working. And you have to make those decisions. Do you stick with it even though it's not working out anymore or do you jump ship, but then you risk. It's the unknown, isn't it?

03:01

Sounds like you've made that call by going with publishing and doing the thing that you really wanted to do. But then at the same time, despite knowing what it was that you wanted, it comes from Noah, what did you do?

03:16

Yeah, exactly. That's what I mean about it's good to kind of keep your eye out. I think it's always good to have in your mind what else is happening outside to get to you engineer into your own company? And there are always other opportunities. And I know sometimes it can feel like, oh no, this is the only place for me, but actually there's new companies popping up all the time, there's existing companies. It's about finding somewhere that has the same values or that gives you the same challenges or the same amount of excitement. So that for me at the time was I was really interested in fashion. And my second kind of big role that I had, was at NET-A-PORTER, an online fashion retailer and they were this up and coming brand. They weren't very big at the time and I just remember it's little things happened. There was a Guardian article that was... Because [inaudible 00:04:03] had my ear to the ground looking at what was out there.

04:06

And a Guardian article was written about NET-A-PORTER, how it was the coolest place to work right now. And that was just the trigger. That was the only thing I needed. I was like, oh, that' sounds... I'll go for that then. That's what I'm interested in. So you just make these decisions at the time and then I ended up staying there nine years and absolutely loved it.

04:24

Your journey at NET-A-PORTER, it was incredible though. And you went through so many, though there's clearly a string from SEO all the way up to social commerce. There are so many different changes in that nine year period. What were the hard moments of that growth?

04:49

When I was working at NET-A-PORTER, we were literally on this... we were like a rocket ship. It had just started. When I joined, there was about 150 people, maybe less, maybe a hundred people. By the time I left nine years later, there was about 2500. So when you go through that kind of growth, you have to accept change. Nothing stays the same. Every day is different. There's more people joining every week and some people thrive in that kind of environment. And I think I do. I quite like that. I don't like to be saying the same thing. I like to be learning new things, meeting new people, taking up the opportunities. Other people will find that trickier. But I think with those things, you've got to either go along for the ride or jump off.

05:30

Is that a conscious decision you're making there or is that just something that comes naturally to you?

05:35

I think it's a bit of both. I think for me, obviously my personality suits that kind of environment. And I like that, I like things changing. I like things moving forward. The fact that I'm interested in things like new technology, I want to embrace new things. So therefore it does suit me. But at the same time, I also think you have to have a word with yourself, because even the best of us can get kind of... you can build a team, you can feel quite comfortable in that environment. You can know what you're doing. You can feel like you're at the top of your game. And then if it all changes, it's very easy to want to push against that and try and slow things down or to try and keep things as they are.

06:14

And that's when I think, yeah, that's when I have to sort of have a word with myself just like, are you doing this for you? Or are you doing this for the business? And if it's the sort of the former, you have to think whatever you are doing for you, is it because this business doesn't suit you anymore? Or is it just because you're scared of the unknown and sometimes you just have to sort of let go of that little bit.

06:35

Why did you go to Facebook?

06:35

Again, these things, the opportunities pop up by random. I was on maternity leave at the time and I already knew that that would be quite a nice time to move on, do something different because I'd been nine years at NET-A-PORTER. It's a long time to be at a single company. And [Jeff Master 00:06:52] was on mat leave. They contacted me and said they had this opportunity. Obviously, I was on maternity leave so I had to kind of wait until afterwards, but they sort of set the seed about this opportunity coming up for a launching portal and yeah, it was just the perfect time. If that happened maybe a year before, I probably would've said no or maybe even the year after and I'd been somewhere else, but yeah, it was just sort of perfect timing. Seemed like a really great experience.

07:18

How practically, how did it work? So someone from Facebook reached out to you personally, whilst you were on mat leave, how did you navigate that whilst you were on mat leave? That sounds like a lot to deal with all at once.

07:31

You just sort of take these things in a stride. The good thing was that I wasn't dependent on it. So because I hadn't gone and gone through the interview process, I hadn't chased it. They'd gone in contact with me. I didn't really have anything to lose. So I was quite relaxed about the situation. Whereas I can imagine if I'd kind of applied personally for it feel quite pressurized.

07:50

Because you'd invested in it a bit more, you mean?

07:55

Yeah, exactly.

07:56

Interesting. And it's funny how our psychology flips us the other way around.

07:59

I think it's really funny. If you go into an interview and you kind of feel it's all on you and how you have to perform and you have to do all the right things, I think that the interviewee can kind of, or the interviewer can read that vibe off you.

08:14

Yeah.

08:15

Whereas I was juggling holding a baby, walking [inaudible 00:08:18], taking phone calls, it's just sort of, yeah, just felt quite natural, but it just happened that they were looking for someone with my skillset and I had my skillset. So they'd already sort of decided what they were looking for. They'd sort of come across me so I think that makes a difference as well.

08:32

Do you think that you as an individual kind of appreciate it wasn't quite that interview process, but do you interview better generally if you are more relaxed or actually does it work the other way around and it's...

08:49

I don't have the right answer to that. I just know that I just always think about interviews are, this is what I try and keep in my mind. Interviews are a two way thing and although you are being interviewed, you should see it as an opportunity to interview the person. At the end of the day, you are going to have to work for this company. You're going to have to invest your time and energy into it. So it's just as important that this person can answer your questions and this company can give you things you want as much as they do. And I think it's quite easy to go into stuff, go into interviews, feeling quite pressurized like it's all on you. And so that's what I try and do to sort of try and relax myself and to actually try and see it as an opportunity to figure something out like actually, are you right for me as well?

09:31

What questions did you ask going into the head of eCommerce role at Facebook? Because you've got so much to lose in so many ways you must have really wanted to make sure that that move was right.

09:49

I didn't see it as a lot to lose or because I'd been on maternity leave, I'd had that break. So I'd sort of been out of work. So I'd just saw it as a brand new opportunity that had no similarities to what I was doing before really, apart from it was in the eCommerce, but obviously complete different industry. And tech was just something that I was really interested in. Because I was working in the tech, running a tech team basically in NET-A-PORTER, but this is working for a tech company. So I just thought it would be, yeah, I just thought be a great experience. But the questions from my side, because I had been on maternity and I was going back to work because they were really important to me.

10:21

So it was things like, if you want me to travel to California, how will that work? I can't. Can I take my one year old with me? Will you support me when I'm there? Or do I have to leave her behind? So I was quite conscious about my own situation and what it would mean. And they were very accommodating so my one year old did get a trip to California, which she liked.

10:42

Did it turn out how you planned?

10:46

No, but it was a great experience. I was, as you can see on my CV, I wasn't there for that long, was there for over a year. I really enjoyed being part of a different kind of company. I enjoyed learning. The offices are great, people that work there were great. But for me I'd kind of stepped into this different life of just yeah, having my one year old and then I wanted to have another one and a lot of companies like that when you work for them, you have to give it your all. And it wasn't I didn't want to give it my all, it was that I had other things that needed a bit of me as well. And I didn't think I could get that work life balance quite how I wanted it.

11:19

Do you think that's a problem of Facebook?

11:22

I don't think it's just at Facebook. I think it's at lot of places. I think a lot of companies talk the talk and they say that they're very supportive of back to work moms or say they're supportive of different people's situations, but whether they actually do it, it's very hard to come up with hard and fast rules for everybody. And I think the bigger the company, probably the harder it is, because it's not done so much on an individual person by person basis. PinkNews, as I mentioned before, have been really supportive of that. Some of the things I met, again, another chance meeting, I met Ben, the CEO at a breakfast event and we just happened to get talking and that was that really. But he from the get go was really accommodating by the fact, I told him my situation and why I'd left Facebook and what I was looking for.

12:07

How could you tell the difference between, because if Facebook say that they'll be accommodating and they can make it work and Ben says he can be accommodating and he can make it work. How were you able to see the difference between those two scenarios?

12:24

I don't think you can. So that's why you have to... you have to almost live it a little bit. Obviously you can ask all the questions, but actually it's once you get there, does it pan out how you wanted it to? Is it really that supportive? Do you feel like... Because I know people that their employer says they're part-time, but actually they're still phoned on their day off or they're still expected to attend meetings on the day off, even though it's not a day off as such, but yeah, it's a tricky one.

12:51

Has your own definition of what you would class as your best work changed since you started?

12:59

I think as you go through your career, you just get a clearer idea of what your best work is. I think at the beginning and actually maybe still now, a lot of people just feel like they're winging it. I definitely did. In your first jobs you want to do your best, you want to impress, but there's always... Imposter syndrome is so common. Just feeling like you're in the little bit of the deep end, do you really know what you're doing? Is this good? But that's something that I think comes along with experience is you start to understand what you know, what your best work is, what you can do, what you can achieve. And then once you've got a couple of things under your belt then you sort of have something as a benchmark.

13:37

How did you shake off that imposter syndrome in other ways, other than just living it and experiencing it?

13:44

I think just being aware of it and speaking to people about it and being able to speak openly about it. I actually remember at NET-A-PORTER, of course we're meeting lots of really important people there, feeling very like, am I right here? Can I say what I want to say? Feeling very nervous. And I remember one of my colleagues who was something like the editorial director or someone like the most senior person in the room essentially, and she's turned and just said out loud, oh, I always feel really nervous in those meetings. I feel like everyone knows what they're talking about except me and I had a total reality check, because this is somebody I looked up to, super senior person in the business, always seemed super cool, always knew what she was talking about. To have just said that and just openly say, I suddenly felt so much better. Actually it affects everybody. And actually, probably everyone is having this little conversation in their head. And I think the more you sort of think about that and realize, the better it is.

14:42

It sounds like the moments where you've changed work have been moments that have come to you in some way. And I wonder whether when you reflect, do you think it would've been any different, had you been slightly freer of that imposter syndrome and almost gone at it more? I certainly look at people and think, oh wow, you got so much confidence. You've managed to move from one thing to the other. And I look back on my own life and I think, yeah, I've kind of just made the best of the situations that I've had. What if, what could I have done had I had that confidence in the same way that other person did.

15:24

I think about that as well, but I think everybody's different and everybody has their own vibe in the way they like to work. And I know some people like to be challenging themselves and seeing what better they can do. And it can be from anything from getting a better job title, getting that better salary, working for a better company. And some people get their energy from that. But I actually quite like being at a company for a period of time and really getting into it and getting to know the people and feeling a part of it. I sort of feel a bit like to feel a bit more relaxed about the situation. I like to think when you force things, sometimes they're not the best things. And if you let things happen and be a bit more free and open to them, then good things happen. So I think it does. Yeah, it does depend on your personality type.

16:08

How did you know it was publishing and then fashion that you wanted to go into? Were they interests that you had or were they that just [happenstance 00:16:19] too?

16:19

I did a biology degree, which I did because my careers teacher at the time told me if I chose art, I'd end up in the [doll queue 00:16:27], I think was her exact phrase [inaudible 00:16:29] and-

16:32

That's nice. It was very encouraging.

16:33

I know, very encouraging. So but I happened to be quite good at sciences, so I didn't really know what I wanted to do. So I just, the advice from everybody was just get a degree that everyone's heard of. And then at least it's a good starting point. So I did biology because I'm quite interested in that kind of thing anyway so I did that. But once doing the degree, although I was enjoying it, I knew for sure, I didn't want to go in any of the careers that was going to take me in. So then I just started think about what do I want to do and being a sort of early 20 something, I hadn't lived in London before or been to London that many times. I just got this sort of city bright lights, what can I do? And I actually remember thinking or reading in the back of the paper and used to look for jobs there. I kept seeing this marketing popping up, marketing assistant at really cool companies that I'd heard of, like publishing companies or agencies.

17:24

And I don't think I even knew what marketing was. I just sort of thought that sounded quite good to do. So that's why I went in that route.

17:33

What was pulling you in that direction? Just the bright lights?

17:37

Yeah, I think so. Just wanting to do something that seemed quite glamorous. Sort of the type of thing I can imagine, if you're watching TV and people who work in the city and have cool office jobs. And when I was doing my degree, they did this, they had this pie chart came up on the screen. I still remember it. And it was the jobs that people that have a biology degree generally go into and a massive chunk of it was accountancy. And I was just like, my heart sank. I was like, what am I doing here? And so I think I just tried to get as far away from that as possible.

18:10

What had changed between the moment when you decided to do biology and then the moment when you know you don't want to do biology as a job?

18:24

I think it was that slide. I think you just, yeah. Because you're just forever learning about yourself, aren't you in this? You do different things because... I got a degree because I was told that's what I should do. I went into biology because I was told that what I should do, but that's not necessarily what you want to do. And it's about that kind of looking inside and thinking actually what do I want to do? And for a lot of people like me included, I didn't really know. Even when I chose marketing, I didn't know. I just knew that that sounded different to biology, which I now knew that I didn't want to do. And I think, yeah, I think trial and error is okay. And maybe I was lucky that the first job I got in London was in marketing, but it was quite a forward thinking team that I was in and we were doing a lot of stuff on digital and I was learning about the HTML and email marketing. So it sort of took me in this route of things that I naturally quite liked and was learning.

19:17

But I know other people that weren't as lucky and they landed in their first jobs and didn't like that and then had to try another thing and another thing. And I think that's okay as well. I think it's good to just accept that sometimes you're not going to make the right decisions, but better to be trying and find your way,

19:36

What tools have you developed to listen to yourself along that journey?

19:40

Yeah. It's sort of getting to know yourself, getting to know how you work best. Everyone has different things that sort of make them buzz. And for some people it's the big title or feeling really appreciated or being able to travel. Everyone has these different things that gives them that energy. I only really realized what mine was when I was at NET-A-PORTER and working on launches. And it was that sort of launch buzz, being part of a team and creating something and putting it out into the world. I got such a buzz from that and it didn't matter about anything else, my title or anything else that I was doing. It was being on that track with a team of like-minded people and being able to make something I realized that was what gives me my energy. And once you identify that, I think then you know what you're good at and you can find things that suit you.

20:29

Was there a moment where you realized it or has it been a gradual realization?

20:36

I think it's gradual. There's things that you've gone through at work. We've just had a really good time. And you want to recreate that again so it's finding those moments.

20:41

It almost sounds like there's one journey, which is getting to that moment that you got to, which sounds like almost you think about it as building a company like product market fit, you're trying to work out your own person market fit.

20:55

Yeah. So true.

20:55

And then once you find it almost becomes a different challenge now, which is you're not scaling a company, but you're almost recreating that moment over and over again or at least trying to find it in different settings somehow.

21:10

That's really true. And also evolving yourself a little bit, because that moment isn't the same as it was before. Everything around you is changing, like the technology available, how people are behaving, what people are doing. So although it's the same moment and it's in different situations, so there's still a lot to do to keep up. I think the other thing that changes as well is where you work as well. So before I probably was looking for places that would give me that sort of fast paced feeling that I'm somewhere really successful. Whereas I think once you realize what you really enjoy doing, you also want to take that to a place that really aligns with your sort of values as well, which is definitely something I think that works really well with me and PinkNews because I did have that feeling after coming out of Facebook, I wanted something. Just feel like I'm doing something good in the world and supporting something like working for a company whose mission really aligns with what my mission is.

22:05

What's it specifically given you personally?

22:07

When you go to a smaller company, you can be much more involved in every single area of the business and it becomes a lot more personal to you. You're not just a little cog in some enormous machine. You're actually quite big cog and you can make quite big difference. So I've really enjoyed that side of things and just being able to... So the PinkNews mission is to inform, inspire, change and empower people to be themselves. And I love that just on every level and everybody that works there really aligns to that. And I think when a company is like that, has this sort of clear mission, it sort of brings everybody together a bit more, feels more like a sort of a family on this journey together.

22:53

What more do you think we could all do to I guess, first of all, help people get to the point at which they find that thing they want to recreate? And then secondly, how could we take those people who have found that moment of recreation and help them use it in more and more settings?

23:14

I think it's just about understanding or understanding.. When people first start their career, it's just a massive learning curve. And I think it's just enabling people to be able to be learning, but also to recognize when they're maybe not in the right situation, maybe let them try other things. I always say on people on my team, just because you are employed is one thing, doesn't mean you have to stay at that the whole time. If you're seeing what so and so is doing and you'd really like to have a go at that one, why not give that a go as well? I think a lot of the time people get stuck in this structure or they have a role and that's what they have to do. And it feels like they can't move around. And I just think as employers or as managers, that's about you recognizing people on your team, recognizing their skills, getting to know them properly and finding out what really makes them tick and then supporting that as best you can.

24:07

And then that recreation moment?

24:09

And then in terms of recreating it, I think that's again, it's just about ongoing communication and knowing the people on your team and at what stage they are in that moment and are they still getting that same energy and buzz? And I think understanding that people will come and go. I think you can't keep people on your team forever or keep people in the same business forever. I think it's important as part of their growth and their career to try different things, but always know that they can come back.

24:34

Yeah.

24:34

Something I have as a like I try and have as a role is just to try and keep in contact with as many people I work with as possible. Hopefully, always leave on really good terms, keep that ongoing dialogue. It's really interesting to see, people that you've worked with, the journey they take and be able to check in with them. And you never know, these people that you meet day to day, how they could maybe help you in the future or I've definitely had it. Say that, I've worked with people in the past that are now working for me now, that's because of that, you build relationships with people as you go, you get to know how you like to work and how different people like to work. And you tend to find your path to sort of do this the whole time.

25:16

What's next for you?

25:17

Who knows? Not thought that far ahead yet. I'm definitely happy where I am for the time being.

25:30

Thank you for sharing your journey. I've loved it. Thanks Sarah.