Software Engineer to VC - Altan Tutar

00:00

I don't think everybody who's a software engineer can work at a VC, because you need to be very pivotal driven. You need to take the next step to network with people. That's what main thing that you should be doing at a VC and create a personal brand. That's what really important. I think though, if you are willing to take that step, it is a very good step because you are different the way you think about processes and logic and being able to code is something that is very valuable for VC, because a lot of people can't do it. That is your competitive advantage in a way.

00:38

I grew up in Turkey. So, I grew up in a very conservative city. So like very, very conservative, and it wasn't really open to differences and wasn't really open to... It's just always the same people. And my father on the other hand saw the United States, worked in the United States before for a year, wanted to take us out, wanted to be like, hey, you need to go to places that are a bit are open and open to conversation, open to different thoughts and opinions, but you can also learn a lot in terms of knowledge and how you can gain that. So, he pushed us and encouraged us. My brother, who's a founder now. He's created his business and then I'm also the younger. So I'm 24. He always pushed us to learn more and to learn English, basically to be able to take us to an American school. American high school. Went to an American high school in Turkey, then worked my way up to going to school in the United States then did my undergrad there.

01:41

It was very amazing. The first time I arrived was like, there's so much going on here in terms of knowledge, in terms of what diversity you see. You don't see that like growing up in Turkey because it's everybody's Turkish. So, I was really inspired by that, then study computer science and math. And I was really always interested in entrepreneurship. I always knew how to program. So, I tried little apps and then pitched it when I was an undergrad, got some money, but always couldn't take the step to drop out of school because first I need school to stay in the US. And that's one of the reasons. Then anyway, just raced around 15K just doing small projects on the side while I was at school, then came to London, did my masters in computer science then stayed, then joined a VC firm after that. Yeah. So, just turned 24 as well. So, pretty young compared to, I guess, the people that you would talk, but that's my journey towards how I come here.

02:47

What stands out to me is your transition from computer science and being a software engineer to now working at a VC and an early stage VC, quite quickly. How have you decided to make that transition and why make it so early?

03:06

Yeah, it's an interesting question. So I started... I was interviewed with Facebook while I was interviewed with Antler as well. One thing I realized is when I was at Imperial as well, I'm very people driven. I really like talking to people just have been really, always good at connecting people. So, I would have this friend in Turkey, I would have this other friend in the US, so I'd be like, "Oh, you guys should meet." So, I've been really good at that since I was probably very very little to college and to my masters as well. And that transition mainly happened because I was asking myself, Hey, I really want to be in this startup entrepreneurship hub. And Anthony gave me that choice. You can join now. And I took it. I was just like, I'm not going to wait until I get 30, 35 as other people would do.

04:01

I'm just going to nurture myself in this environment and go and see in how people do that in real time versus just reading about it on Crunchbase or reading about it on LinkedIn or anywhere that you can see. And that's the motivation for me. And mainly the reason why I was hired, because Antler is an early stage VC. We've accumulated lots of data. So, lots of data on companies and on people. So, I was just like, this is an interesting challenge where I can analyze company data and that's where my skillset would be valuable. And that's how I made that decision.

04:43

Why VCs?

04:45

Why VC?

04:46

Yeah. Why VC is a good question. So again, when I think about it, I like work that is very fast based. So, in a VC environment you have... Like in Antler, so I would have my own OKRs. I would have... I need to build this dashboard. I need to do this data analysis, but I'm also very flexible and independent. So I can go and I can meet people from other VCs if I really like, I can talk to people, I can meet different founders. And for me as a person that would like to learn from people, VC always attract a lot of amazing people, in my opinion.

05:33

You just talk to founders who've left their jobs at very good companies and then tend to have really good conversations with people. And there's a lot of learning that happens through those conversations rather than staying at a software engineering job, working with 15, 20 people at max. And doing your 9:00 to 5:00 coding, getting stuff done. But you wouldn't build that. You wouldn't talk to amazing people as... You probably talked to a lot of smart people, but because VC's people driven, you tend to find amazing individuals that you can chat with and ideate eight and so on. I think that's the reason why, mainly.

06:21

It's interesting, when you mentioned moving to the US, the first thing you said was people who were different, people who were more open-minded.

06:32

Yeah.

06:33

And it was about that connection with people. And it sounds like you've all almost made the same decision again, going from being a software engineer to being a VC. Is there a link there?

06:44

Yeah, for sure. It's definitely just being able to see and have these interesting conversations with unique various people. So, Antler attracts people who are techies, Antler attracts people who have business or people who have done arts before, people have done all sorts of different backgrounds come to Antler in the company itself as well, but also in our programs. We've had 3000 people come to us in those from different 121 nationalities. So, it's amazing tap that number. It's amazing to meet people in London where we have a founder who grew up in, I think in Nigeria and then immigrated to the UK and then work here for five years. And he was just very... He told me that he waited those five years because he waited for the sponsorship to end and get that visa to be able to create a company. And then he just went on and did it, and you see these stories. And I think this is really fascinating to me to be able to talk to these people.

07:53

What have the downsides been to moving from software engineering to VC?

07:58

Yeah. It's a good question. So, I have always this sense to build things. So, I like building, I like coding a lot. I've Been coding since I was 15. And then when you code for that long and you like building stuff, building websites, so I worked at a robotics company before, worked on their integration with website. So, all these technical challenges you take. Worked in VR before, worked in robotics. So, as a researcher, so all these firm backgrounds, I miss being technical. So, I miss being able to just go and code and like, oh, I want to do this and build it. But I take that as a challenge and do it on my free time now. So, that's what I [inaudible 00:08:48], still want to keep technical, but mainly trying to be 50%, that would be the, I guess the role that I would want to go eventually is like, I'm technical. I can code, I can understand, but also with people that I can talk to, like in Antler or other interesting people. So, that would be the scenario that I would want to take my role as well going further.

09:17

If you were to like assess your energy levels on where you get your energy from, it sounds like you get your energy from two places, from building things, but then from also being with others.

09:30

Yeah.

09:30

How would you weight both of those and having moved into VC, do you feel more energetic, more filled or less?

09:43

Yeah, I definitely feel more energetic at VC. So, my levels definitely driven by people. Lockdown was not a great time for me. Because you spend your time in front of a computer, was doing my masters, and the only people that you would talk to is through Zoom. And I didn't like that. I hated it. But then also sometimes I want that space where I just want to code. So, four or five hour blocks, I'm like, I don't. I close my phone and just like, hey, I've learned this cool skill, solidity on the band. I would want to learn this. So I'm just going to go and try to do some stuff. But I would say more people driven than actually spending alone time, but still need that time to operate well in both areas, if that makes sense.

10:35

Yeah. Could we dig deep into the practical nature of what you do at analytics? I'm sure there are a lot of technical people who think about this move, but don't know the specifics about what it involves.

10:52

Sure.

10:52

And what type of analysis they might get the chance to do. What is the red line?

10:59

So, if you think about this right early stage VC, you don't get that much data per se. We're very people driven. So, you need to analyze people in a way that your investors do. So you need to trust those instincts because at Antler, what we do is we get people into programs and we learn about people through that way. And that's the challenge. So, you only analyze data that are very, very small compared to big data sets that you would work on. My daily work includes this. So I'm operations analyst, which means I'm fixing stuff. My job globally is just to be able to fix processes at Antler. So when I arrived at Antler, it was like, we didn't even have good dashboards. People would ask you like, "Oh, where's this information that I can look at?

11:51

And that was one of the things I did was talking with people and fixing stuff, and building our dashboards. So, we built dashboards that our fans can look at. We built dashboards that our scouts can look at. We built dashboards that are... Also early stage teams that can say, hey, these are demographics. Basic five side, I can take a screenshot and send it. So, that solves a lot of problems.

12:16

And indeed that my skills were really handy. And I got really applauded for that. Just being able to reduce friction across the organization. And second, I fixed most of our databases. So, we had really bad quality data. And that's because you come with a technical background, you go to a VC company where most of the people, most likely are not that technical.

12:47

There are of course, amazing investors who turn out to be great technical people who turned to be great investors too. So, like Marc Andreessen is a good example of that. But mainly a lot of people are like, hey, I've done investment banking, PE, came here doing that. So, that's the second part of my role. And third part is something that... The flexibility comes in as well. You are really independent. Right. So, I did join a group called Antler Web 3.0 team. And where we doing just trying to find technical talents in Web 3.0 and drive them to Antler and the second one would be finding just companies that we can invest. And third is just create our thought leadership. So, how we can think about things like tokenomics and FDs, what sort of things.

13:40

And we dedicate people to learn about that. So I'm focusing on tokenomics like, how do I understand tokens before investing in a company, before investing in a project. So, which is really handy. So, it's like in terms of technical work, it is not that hard, but in terms of, I think satisfaction and how you would get applauded by people is there. So because you can fix a lot of processes than a lot of people can't, and that's really valuable for VC firm.

14:15

Do you think it's the right path for someone who is a software engineer? Does it give you this big advantage if you've been a software engineer before?

14:30

Yeah. I don't think everybody who is a software engineer can work at a VC. Because you need to be very pivotal driven. You need to take the next step to network with people. That's what main thing that you should be doing at a VC and create a personal brand. That's what really important. I think though, if you are willing to take that step, it is a very good step because you are different and the way you think about processes and logic and being able to code is something that is very valuable for VC, because a lot of people can't do it. And that is your competitive advantage in a way. And that's how I think about it.

15:28

How have you learned about your own competitive advantage? You've been through multiple different experiences moving from countries, changing disciplines. And each point that you've made those decisions, they've come from you, self reflecting on your own competitive advantage and understanding it. Would you mind breaking down, if there was specific moments where you were able to understand that competitive advantage at times clearer than others?

15:59

For me, I believe in two different people. So, people that go into depth and breadth. So for me, I've tried depth before many times. I always wasn't happy. And for me, those experiences were first as a research assistant, as a researcher, in terms of academic setting, you go really deep into just very tiny little thing. And I was always frustrated by that. And that's because I think I liked to switch and read different things, learn different things on go. So, I never had this... When I've tried digging deeper into things. So that started with an undergrad in the US where I studied first biology and worked in a biology lab, it was very successful, but published the paper rounds 18, 19, but then I was stressed, like, this is just so boring to be able to just work on a tiny little thing in the lab.

17:03

And that's when I had to VR, I loved VR technology. I still do. I was one of the people that set up VR headsets in a college room, and then people would come and play sort of thing. Bring their beers and then just would play. We played VR games at the night, which was great. But then I went to research again, just was really good at it. Just never liked it. I was like, okay, these things are coming into the world. AI is... People have been talking about AI in 2018, also blockchains where ICO boom was there. So, I was always interested in, okay, I need to read them out these two. And then I tried it in my masters to focus on robotics as well with the idea that, oh, okay, I'll get good at this. I'll I'll go to deep mind work as a researcher there.

17:49

Then I spent five months doing it. And it wasn't my fit as well. So, just tried it multiple times. It's not only the first time that I tried to go in depth and VC fit perfectly for breath. You can just... For me now, I can read about anything and nobody... It's my comparative advantage now, because I can talk about different things with people. That's how I figured it out.

18:14

Public CEOs over the last 20 years have moved from being specialists to being more generalists. You tend to have the CEO of an oil company more and more these days, it's more moved to be the CEO of a technology company, and throughout all of our journeys, we're asking ourselves, how deeply should I specialize? And how broad should I be? Do you think there is any type of broad brush advice to an individual starting out? Should you be specialist or should you be broad?

18:47

I listen to a podcast. I think one advice I got through there was a person who wants to be in Olympics. They spent, I don't know, years and years and years. Like six, seven years, or maybe more just doing that one little thing and being really good at it. For me when I started doing that. And then I dig deeper and ask my question after a year later, am I going to be the person that's going to be the best in this thing? And if the question is no, and then I move on because... And also asking that question is like, do I have the motivation and energy to spend those years to specialize? And if that answer, yes, then you're in a good path. If that answer is no, which was no for a while for me, I just moved on.

19:41

It's almost as if you're passionate about it, there is no reason not to specialize, but if you are not passionate about it, then find something else that you are.

19:50

Yeah. But the problem with people like me, it's just this passionate about so many things. So like I'm passionate about-

19:57

Yeah. What do you do in that scenario? I guess you try to find something that's broad.

20:02

Yeah. That's so how I ended up doing it in a way, because I was like, I need to broaden this, but again, you start with a VC, I guess if you're a software engineer, then you could focus on being able to read technical papers, being able to bring that to the table and then do your other things of just connecting and networking. And that pays... You're the only person that can do that. A lot of people can't do that. So that's still how... If I would define it, it would be specialization by being able to having that broader perspective. So, you can combine four or five different things and then create your own unique thing.

20:45

When you went through the process of finding work and you were deciding, okay, I'm a specialist, but I want to see this from a broader perspective, what other things did you consider [inaudible 00:20:59] interviewing at Facebook, but what other things were you considering alongside Antler?

21:04

Always want to be a founder, just don't have that... But I know I've seen it. It's very mentally tough to be a founder. So, I've considered that main reasons why I didn't take that step is again because of visa status and I still have that. And second being maybe I'll learn from people that have done it before. And that was the main reason I guess, picked, helped me make that choice towards Antler. But I was always... I applied with Facebook, but I was considering other careers too. So I was like, I did my masters in computer science, probably one of the best skills that people want at this point in this time, in this being able to code, being able to think it like a computer science, a lot of people want that because... So, I consider investment banking and management consulting. And I started doing those for a day and I was like, this is not me. I don't like it.

22:08

So spend a bit a time understanding what is that. And then said, okay, this is not something I want to specialize. And then just pulled back and like, okay, I'm not going to do this.

22:18

How did you go about understanding it? So, how did you figure out that you didn't like investment banking?

22:25

Network with people that do it. I've asked people, what do you think about it? And a lot the people that I talk to have been doing it two, three years, they wouldn't say good things about it in a way. In terms of the hours and in terms of... But some people who love it actually. Love it. So, if you want to work, that's required by those crazy hours short, go ahead.

22:49

Do you meet those people when you're networking with them or are you meeting them online or are they people you just know?

22:55

I happen to know when I go to a party and then meet different people and then ask in a way. So, it's been very natural for me to network because it's something I like doing. It's not like I force myself to do it. I know some people that force them themselves to do it, I'm not one of those people. So it's just very natural to just go to a party and start talking to different people.

23:20

Yeah. If it didn't come so naturally, what other options do you think there are to try and understand what it's like to be in another job shoes?

23:30

Yeah. I would say, just to think about a person to motivate people. A person opens up on average, I think, has 50 close people that they know. So, even just talking to one person, just getting closer to that person opens up many pathways to other different people that can help you. And I've seen that happen. And the reason I guess Antler happened for me was that as well, just to being able to talk with the right people that opened me that path. And it's very utilitarian, but think about it as a utility. Think about it as a game. How can you gamify networking with people? What's the return on you? And also just think about what you can provide to people. Because it's a two-sided marketplace in a way, because you provide something and the other people provide something as well.

24:29

And it's a hard thought because the moment that you want that thing, you are struggling with that problem. You're trying to work out whether you want to take that job and you need to use the knowledge of the people around you. If the advice that you get in that moment is, well do it, but also give then it almost can feel a bit conflated because I'm like, I'm giving something, but actually the reason why I'm doing this is because I want their information somehow.

24:59

Yeah.

24:59

It's almost like you need to do it before that moment in some way.

25:04

Mm-hmm (affirmative). What do you mean by that?

25:06

You need have built that relationship before you need it, which is then difficult if you are naturally introverted and you've waited it until that moment that you've needed it.

25:17

Yeah. It's a hard question. So, I'm trying to think of people that are introverts that are really good at networking. So, those people, I think might have the best answer to it. Because if you think about it like it's... And I know some people, I think in the Antler team also that are, I think they're introverted in a way, but they're still very good at it.

25:46

Is there any other way of doing it other than networking?

25:50

Just meeting people.

25:51

It's just meeting people?

25:52

Yeah. It's just like something, yeah. Again, people say network. That's why you teach in school. Like, you should network and network. I've never approached it that way per se. And that's why I've been very curious about the world and curiosity also doesn't come only with books and stuff. And that's more curious about being curious about people.

26:21

I'd love to dig into how you assess people when you meet them and work out, whether they're right and good for your life. You must have perspective on this, through your work at Antler, but you also will have a perspective on it, through the decisions that you've made and joining Antler and leaving software engineering.

26:43

Yeah.

26:45

When you were first interviewing and you were deciding where to work, how did you understand the people that you were potentially going to be working with? What types of questions did you ask them to understand the motivations?

26:58

For me as a junior... So, I would define myself as a junior. I have a great boss who is the co-founder of Antler. So, they guard... It's interesting when you say like, when you meet the people, how do you assess it? For me, I always trust the feeling when I meet the person, like chemistry. This is what we do at Antler too, the same way like just always trust the chemistry at the first place, because it's like something that you want to work... A person that you want to work with, needs to have that chemistry, then really understood that I want to work with... They guard when we did the case study. I forget that I provided most of the analytics, but he take it in a bit of different way. It was like interpret as like is this a viable business that we should think about?

27:57

And I never think about that way. So, sometimes I always find a person that provides you a perspective that you don't see. And for me, my boss is able to do that and maybe I'm able to do that for him as well. And that's why, I guess we have a good relationship. And for me, I think assessing people is if you're working with them, definitely trust the chemistry and then understand that the skillsets how that comes in. He was a consultant before, so he's very good at presenting information. I've not been... My mind is always running full speed, but I always need to learn how I present information in a way that people can understand it. And that's something I've been learning through him quite well and getting that chemistry and also the benefits... Not the benefits, but I guess the positive sides and the negative sides of that person. And if the person has the positives, which in your case is the negatives, then you can mix match a puzzle and then do better things.

29:10

Sounds like in that scenario you're able to work together on a case study that enabled you to figure out whether you could work together or not. And if your analysis would stimulate his ideas.

29:22

Yeah.

29:23

Have you had situations in the past where it hasn't been the case where you've gone through a case study like that and it hasn't clicked. And could you give an example?

29:32

I think I had that quite a lot with... I was interviewing for a company that's just very early. So, seed stage startup, was created by Imperial alumni. So, I got connected through there. Really liked the founders in the first go, then potentially I think when we were working together, they sent me a code to write. And then the way I worked didn't match their work. I think they wanted a person that's more just focused on one thing, fix that and do that in their job description. Just only do full stack while I just mention, hey, I only don't want to do full stack, but I also want to be on the client side as well. And they were completely against it. So, it's just something for me was flexibility and independence was very important from the beginning. And that's how I approached the case study. Well, and the other case, it just didn't work really well because I was just very limited on what people would think I should be doing.

30:48

And now that you are... It's just a bad way of phrasing it. But on the other side, do you have any particular insights that you've logged in your mind that will you think will help you in the future where, when you are meeting other people and trying to work through whether you could work together or not?

31:14

Yeah. One thing I've realized at Antler as well is that people tend to look at certifications and ICOM also certifications and a track record. So, we've invested in a lot of people that... We went to McKenzie, went to Harvard, but I met amazing people that haven't done that. And they have been probably most amazing people I've met at Antler, that haven't been to school, haven't been to college. Colleges and universities in the UK. And they have been phenomenal at what they're doing.

31:49

So I think I'm removing that bias as we go further. I had that bias of like, oh, if you went to Harvard, if you went to, I don't know, Oxford, Cambridge, you should be smart, but I'm removing that. And I think that's a good practice in terms of how we approach people.

32:06

It's this constant question of how can we keep this chemistry and how can we rely on that feeling? But at the same time, unstitch those biases there. Are there any others?

32:20

In terms of biases?

32:21

Yeah. That you've come across in your own mind that have held you back.

32:25

So, that's one that I talked to about. Looking at LinkedIn profile, and thinking that people are smart. You don't really know before talking to them, whether they have the energy or they have the ambition to do that. I would go and find a person and say like, oh, this looks great. And then trying to see what else, what advice is. So, work is definitely there. The company that they worked, I've removed that bias fully. For me working at Google it's good, but it doesn't signal me that you're going to be a great entrepreneur or you're going to be a person that I really want to work with. Same as university, same also as like... I think something I removed going further, the US education as well, is that background in terms of whether you come from a really top 1% of the population, whereas it's below 50%.

33:23

I've seen people that are super, super amazing and they don't come from that 1%, but they are still hustling and trying to do those things. I bet on those people than actually bet on the people that come from top 1% and have been given the opportunities that they can come there. And that's why I think I bias, because people tend to come from a really good background, go to a really good school. And mostly they haven't hustled their way, but mainly could have been that it's they had the opportunities given to them in a way. And I would bet on the people that are not from that background.

34:02

I love hearing your perspective because in so many ways it's something that I think we can all learn as we are interviewing too.

34:08

Yeah. Of course.

34:09

It's our job to really understand the people that we are talking to and assess them in the same way that they're assessing us.

34:16

Yeah. That's a good perspective.

34:19

Thanks so much for sharing your story.