Works evolution - Shifra Cook

00:00

At the point when we'd sold and were out, I'd just had my first. I looked for something that meant that it didn't take all of my time and energy and be such an obsession so I could purposely focus more on my family. I knew that, so I went and got a job, but essentially still came out as a thorn in that person's side because it's still in me, I'm still that person, even if I have kids or even if I don't, that's why essentially I resigned when my daughter was five and I was like, "Right, no. I can't compromise myself any longer."

00:40

Is finding your best work something that you've thought about much before? And are there any topics you'd like to cover as we go through the conversation?

00:48

Finding my best work means lots of things to me. It means understanding how I best play to my strengths and the things that give me energy and where I make the most difference in a business and understanding where I don't and being all right with that and finding ways to plug those gaps. So one is understanding, as a founder CEO, understanding where I should be placing my skills and my effort best. That's where I can do my best work.

01:34

And then I think it's also understanding from the point of view of a business as a stakeholder, understanding in order to deliver the best work for the business, where my limitations exist, which of course there are profound and many, getting help and leaning on other people to help plug those gaps. I think a lot of council, a lot of advice, but listening almost to too much can be-

02:12

Yeah. If we have to understand our own limitations and live with them, how do you live with them?

02:22

I think in the knowledge that I'm one person, I can't do and be everything. In building a team that excels, it's a bit like a, it sounds prosaic, doesn't it? But it is like a bit of a jigsaw puzzle. I understand we're very, even though we're a team with different labels associated with our names and titles and whatnot, ultimately we each play a very different and significant part and that's not just... It is in the skills that we bring, but also in the way that we are and the way that we see the world. And I think having that jigsaw puzzle as you hire and bring people in and an understanding of where you fall down or where your weak spots are, is super important.

03:19

Because for a successful business, you need people that are going to plug those gaps and be all right with that. Right? I am all right with that completely. I know that there are areas of the business where I'm best off not playing 100%, having an understanding, but not doing, yeah? Facilitating and understanding, but not doing because I'm not the best person for that. It's not energizing for me, it's no good for the business, and someone else is better off picking.

03:49

Were you always okay with living with it, even when you started off at Zenith? Did you have that mindset then?

03:58

I was part of a, you'd call it a startup, but at the time there was no such thing really so much, it was a small business. I left big global media and went to a small business, which we grew and I was a founder, shareholder there, which we grew and sold to Havas. And through that journey, I think I learned so much and was exposed to so much and got to understand where my strengths and talents lay. And through that, it was a huge experience as well, which was fantastic. And then I had, getting my life story here, Ben, then I went and had kids, which I still have obviously.

04:44

That's good.

04:46

They're amazing. And work, I got a job if you like after that, and then I thought, "No. No, I don't actually want a job." I want my work to be more of an experience, much more than going in, doing something, and coming home. I'm the sort of person where I'm happy for it to very much be as much part of my life as my family.

05:19

Can we dig into that experience that you had at BLM?

05:22

Sure.

05:24

How did you end up as the managing director there and then selling to Havas, where does that come from?

05:30

What happened there was, so there were two founders that I joined. We grew the business substantially. I was doing a lot of pitching. I was bringing in, growing a team, bringing in infrastructure, built IP.

05:47

How did you find that job?

05:48

I was done with big agency life and was ready to go and was just talking to my contacts and they said, "Oh, there's this little shop that's just set up with these two guys and they're looking for someone that is actually..." They'd come from sales and they were looking for someone with a strategic background and customer insight strategy. That was me.

06:11

Okay. Got it.

06:12

So that's what they brought me in for. So we grew that, and then we built IP, we built products, I kind of did that with them. And so we grew to quite a substantial business, the founders then left, and I ended up running it for a period of time before having kids.

06:30

Got it. And when during that experience did you transition from that early stage career to someone who had that type of self-awareness where they recognized that it's more like a jigsaw puzzle?

06:47

I've always been very driven, which is why the idea of working in a global corporate didn't ever really fit for me because you have to be... The opportunity there was more, you stuck in your lane and I kept crossing over into other people's lanes and wanted a broader view. So I knew something more entrepreneurial and with more ability to drive and put yourself into your work was always something that I wanted. How to manifest that was slightly different. I think it's... So I'm getting quite deep here, Ben, I'm going to share with you, I guess I also did quite a lot of work on myself, I studied neuro-linguistic programming, so that was very much about self-management, self talk, the kind of words that we use, how we communicate.

07:51

Yeah. For anyone who doesn't know what neuro-linguistic programming is, what is it?

07:55

It's essentially, it can be the basis of hypnotherapy, right? But it's essentially the words that you use and the neural impact of that. It's quite often used in sales as well to build rapport really quickly, but in a manipulative way, also to help people understand what you're saying when you're both coming from different points of view.

08:28

So I did quite a lot of work on myself on that and it helped me see the world slightly differently. I'm really into also generally working on myself, managing myself. That's a life-long journey, right? And I think as I got to understand the drive and where might be best place to put that, because I guess I went and got a job after BLM and [inaudible 00:08:56] that, and so I knew that I ended up being a bit of a thorn in my employer's side because I was so driven and I thought, "I can understand this is not the right place for me. I need to obviously go and do my thing." But I had to be ready to do that and I guess up until that point, as an individual, I wasn't in the right place to do that.

09:21

What did that give you other than persuasion part? You went into it trying to understand yourself-

09:27

Oh gosh. So much.

09:30

What was it that-

09:30

So much. I think within that, it helped me understand that essentially all of what I need is in me, it's just the ability to access it and that maybe I could get in my own way on that, and how to potentially unblock yourself. It sounds really woo woo, but I think most of the ability to... All things being equal, right? Let's say that from the start, the ability to actually achieve is based on what's up here, right? And like I said, I mean all things aren't equal, but from that level, I think the ability to do your best work and achieve to the highest level is very much what goes that self talk, what goes on in your mind, the limiting beliefs, the NLP is all, it's about unblocking limiting beliefs, understanding what they might be, how you can recognize and see when they come up and find a way around them.

10:39

Sounds like you're removing layers in some way.

10:41

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

10:43

Do you think you would've done that had you not been under so much pressure running a company?

10:50

Yes. Yeah, because to me, the whole business and life are intermingled and the better I can be, the better I can be for my business.

11:04

But if you hadn't been doing that business, and let's say that you were doing, you were in that big corporate thorn in the side and you weren't under so much pressure, would you have still done it then?

11:16

Potentially not. I think being the kind of person that I am and the driven person that I am and to understand myself more, to enable to be and unlock what is in me to achieve, I felt it necessary to go out and do that kind of work.

11:37

And despite doing so much deep work, you get a real job.

11:41

That was a means to an end, I guess, at a time when my children were quite small and I was pretty darn exhausted.

11:49

Yeah. What was the overlap? Did you have children during the acquisition or after? Or...

11:57

After. So at the point when we'd sold and were out, I'd just had my first and then, yeah, I looked for something that meant that it didn't take all of my time and energy and be such an obsession so I could purposely focus more on my family. I knew that... So I went and got a job, but essentially I still came out as a thorn in that person's side because it's still in me, I'm still that person, even if I have kids or even if I don't. But yeah, and so that's why essentially I resigned when my daughter was five and I was like, "Right, no. I can't compromise myself any longer."

12:48

It's interesting how your definition of what doing your best work sounds like it might have changed for a moment once you'd sold your company and had your first child, is that right?

13:02

I think at that point, I got to know myself a lot more and I changed as an individual through that process and I learned patience, I learned more resilience, built up those muscles quite considerably. And at that point, then tried one business, which was not great, and a second business, which was better, and then founded this, which is moving along great guns.

13:32

You still stuck it out at Cream for a decent period of time despite being the thorn.

13:40

Yeah, I was brought in as, "Well, I've seen what you've done before, come and do that for me." So I was probably there three years longer, two years longer than I should have been, but at the time, it was easy but not fulfilling. And like I said, the kids were both small and so I thought, "Right, well, I'll use this time when they're really little to..." Not that I wasn't doing my job, but it was just sort of where my focus and energy went.

14:15

It's funny how our definition of best work often feels like our own definition, and actually in a way, your story shows that it's not just your definition, but it's also your family's and it sounds like it's not just almost... Your definition is a product of multiple things, not just one thing.

14:38

Completely. No, no, that's a really, really good insight, Ben. I think that's a really good insight. Absolutely. It is multiple things because it has to work for you as an individual, right? So the ability to do my best work and really fly career wise at the expense of not being there for my then three and five year old, it is the choices you make, right? But ultimately, I had to go and go down this path and thankfully I think as a female founder with a family, you can't do it without another, your other half being right behind you and supporting you and saying, "Yeah, you go do that." Because it wouldn't work.

15:29

Yeah. Why did you start Particity?

15:33

It was my problem, so I saw a need in the market. I was doing high level strategic insight work for Channel 4, Virgin, those kind of companies, and it was about the way that people, members of the public are engaged in consumer research and remunerated as well within that. So, what's their experience of taking part in research? And I thought, that looks broken to me. And I built tools in house at the agencies that I've been at before and I thought, I can build tools for this industry.

16:11

This sounds really different to a media company.

16:14

It is very different, but my role is still as the person that is both creative and strategic. So I am not a coder, right? I'm not a developer, but that's it, right? I have enough interpersonal skills to know how to work well with our lead developer and also a good understanding of what the customer wants and needs. That's my sweet spot because that's what I've been doing for other companies for years and years and years, helping them understand their customer wants and needs and opportunities for innovation, and then it's just turned inside and that's what we're doing.

17:00

What's felt different between the two types of companies that you've been a part of? The Particity on the one hand where it's that problem that you've had where you're solving it in a domain that's different, and a media company? There must be pros and cons to both and maybe one that sticks closer to your heart in some way.

17:24

Well I guess as a media agency, you're an intermediary, right? So I mean, you're always at someone's beck and call. Everyone's got customers. But as an agency, you're an intermediary, and here you're really solving a problem, a real problem that your customers have. So that closeness that you have with your customers and the involvement that they have with the business and the product development, it's transformational. It's completely different. In media it's much more transactional, whereas this is something where we work with our customers to understand better and deliver on that. That's product development, right? So it's similar skills, but almost turned inside out if you like. You're doing it internally rather than on behalf of another company.

18:24

And how has your own definition of doing your best work changed now? Where do you find yourself today in that working definition?

18:34

My best work is when we're aligned as a team, when we're going at full speed, where I am working closely with the customer, where I'm informing strategic decision, where I'm out raising investment, where I'm out selling the business. That is my best work. That's when I'm energized, in flow, and we're all off, up, and running. I think managing yourself in that as a founder is just the hardest bit. That remains the hardest bit for me, and I'm sure for many others. It's whatever goes on in your head as you go on that journey. That's the hardest bit.

19:24

Where you once spent time focusing on NLP, have you done anything different since to develop that part of you that you want to work on?

19:27

Yeah, I think subconsciously, right? So, absolutely, I spent a lot of time with NLP and it's helpful and I revisit it, but it plays out in so many different ways. It plays out in your ability to have empathy, to connect, to not get in your own way, to how you manage people, how you sell. All of those kind of interactions, it informs, but I don't sit down at the beginning and think, "How is my NLP going to help me do this?" It just naturally embeds within yourself, it's like a practice. The more you do it, it just becomes second nature.

20:22

I've loved learning about it. Thanks so much for taking the time out, Shifra.