Biology at work - Mithi Thaya

00:00

Your Limbic brain is in charge of decision making, but not of language, but your analytical mind is in charge of language, but not of decision making. So when I ask someone, or if you ask yourself as well, why did you take a particular decision? Deeply you'll know why, but you will be unable to communicate it to the world because it's a different part of your brain that is actually telling the world why it made a decision.

00:27

When was the first time that you consciously used a decision making framework to allocate your own time?

00:33

Well, as an entrepreneur, I think the first time is when I started my first business, my AgBiotech business in the US. And I had really to think hard about where do you want to put your energy? Is this something that the world needs? Is this something that I'm good at? And I spend probably 12 month of discovery before making the jump because the compounded effect of your time and energy over X number of month and years will define the impact that you have. So this is probably the first time like six years ago, when I started my first business that I had to do that. And before that, I think really just going from... Well, I wouldn't say job to job, but really more drawn by my aspirations for things that I loved doing. So more based on instinct, but if you want to start something, you have to be really careful about, where do you put your energy? Where do you allocate capital? Is that something society needs?

01:34

It must have been quite the decision moving from private equity to starting Hart Dairy. What was that framework? Talk me through what situation you found yourself in at the time and how you practically went through that decision making process.

01:53

So I think deeply, for me work is a way of expressing myself. And I always had an admiration for entrepreneurs and people who built things. And while I loved working in private equity, I think the lack of control, not that you have much when you're an entrepreneur, is that you maybe have a little less when you are not an operator or a founder, and I wanted to be in charge. So owning my own sort of destiny in terms of where I ended up putting my energy. And Hart Dairy just presented itself to me in a way as the crossroads where I could have spent the rest of my life just sort of working in private equity and sort of supporting other fellow entrepreneurs on their journey, or I could actually just do it myself.

02:45

And at that point in time, I was like, "All right. Do I want to regret not taking this risk and compound capital over number of years, or just try to do it myself and then see where it goes?" So it was a very natural decision. You have two parts to your brain, you have your Limbic brain and you have your analytical mind, your prefrontal cortex. And up until that point, I had taken a lot of my career decision based on my analytical mind. And for the first time I felt like, I think this is really in line with my identity and my values and belief system. So I should definitely just do it. So it wasn't actually a hard decision. It became harder as I started it because you go through all of the things that you're going through, Ben like the uncertainty of the validation of your solution and product from the market. Capital is another one. Are you hiring the right team? Do you have the right systems in place? So all of these things really where the challenging ones, but to making the decision was actually relatively easy.

03:52

In order to understand our Limbic brain, I mean, requires so much work. Day-to-day, how do you separate your Limbic brain from your analytical brain?

04:04

I think meditation helps a lot, because it allows you to sort of screen through a lot of the thoughts and the intellect that comes into decision making. Obviously when you are making decisions, you don't want to make them based on your instinct. You actually want to take the time. So you want to use first principle as well as system 2 thinking as we call it. So just make sure that you use your intellect. But there are things for which your limbing brain is far more useful than your analytical mind. And it is the case for hiring people, for who is the right type of investors you want involved with you for that journey, the relationship that you have with your clients as well is quite important and to be more human than analytical about it. But everything else just requires pure intellect from what are the systems that you put in place to, how you deallocate capital, to how do you put in place a plan to get to go to market and beyond, setting up customer services and whatnot.

05:18

It's very hard. It's not something easy. How do you do it?

05:24

I'm not sure I do it very well. I don't think I do it very well at all. You reference system 2 thinking, what is system 2 thinking?

05:41

So you have two ways of thinking. One is more instinctual called system 1 thinking. So this is all derived from a book from a very renowned behavioral scientist called Daniel Kahneman. So he's talked about system 1 and system 2 thinking. System 1 thinking is about instinctual thinking where it's the first reaction that you have to something typically based on your identity as a whole and just your primal brain, if you want. And then you have your system 2 thinking where you have actually taken the time to screen through the information to be able to make sense of it on the base of which you will decide whether it makes sense or not. So for instance, taking an example of a job opportunity that a candidate might have. Their system 1 thinking might be the tissue rejection that they have for a particular company or the individuals because of X, Y, and Z.

06:44

It's like their primal brain saying that, "I don't like this person or I don't like the package" and whatnot. But if you think a bit more time, you then realize that the compound effect of this group of people and that company and you working with them actually has more benefits to you than actually your initial tissue rejection. So it's actually making sure that you screen through the noise and the primal brain just telling you, "This is what you should be doing." So system 2 thinking is probably the most important decision making tool for anyone.

07:21

When you are at interview or you're assessing the company that you work for next, there's a filter that you go through to figure out which one of the inputs that you're getting are the system 1 and which ones are of the system 2. How do you know which one or which in that interview? And how do you know what to take as a kind of long-term decision and what to take as a short-term?

07:50

I think as a natural sort of skill, anyone should always challenge the first impression that they have of anything or the first decision that they make, because it's somehow probably not the right one in terms of, if it's too primal, then you know that it's not the right one. Then there is a difference actually between system 1 thinking and more the value based thinking from your Limbic brain, going back to, how do you actually match this to who you are? Let's say that you are interviewing with two managers and then one of the managers you actually get along with that person more than the other person. Then this actually has to be taken into consideration. So this is actually not where you would ignore your actually value system, because this person will probably help you more than somebody who's on paper actually far more qualified and accomplished, but maybe the chemistry isn't there for you guys to be actually form a great team.

08:58

So the lines are quite blurred to be honest, but it's anything that you really believe that your fight to flight brain just goes like into a certain mode of thinking whereby it's like, it's a yes or no, that is so binary and sort of happens in milliseconds that, this is where you should actually challenge it.

09:18

It sounds like you're almost trying to catch the unconscious decisions that you're making.

09:22

Yeah. You know, there are so many things in society that are the result of system 1 thinking from, politics, to racism, to discrimination of all sorts, to even our purchasing patterns. Like, we always go for the easy choice immediately rather than taking the hard choice today. There is this say by Naval Ravikant, "Easy choices equals hard life. Hard choices equals easy life." And system 1 thinking actually takes you to easy choices that then lead on hard life.

09:59

So you always go for that hamburger for instance, and you realize that the compounded effect of those hamburgers is actually diabetes as one of the conditions. Whereas, going for that kale salad might be the right way to do it. And similarly in a job, we always go for the things that are probably more apparent. So you have two jobs, one has a highest salary, the natural instinct is to say, "Actually, I'll go for the one with the higher pay." Maybe that in the longer term, if you have to resign in two years time and then look for something else, it might not be the right thing to do. Not that changing job every two years is a bad thing. It's just that you need to be really sure that it falls into your greater plan that you have.

10:46

Using your Limbic brain for the long-term, I think will make a lot of sense to people. But the tricky part about long-term is it doesn't have a specific end date or a specific time period that you make a decision. For example, in investing, it's like, what would you invest in? It's like the first question you'd ask is, "Well, what's the time period?" And it's almost the same with allocating your own time. It's, if I'm using my Limbic brain to invest in my own career over the long-term, that's great. But what is the specific amount of time? How should someone calculate the time period?

11:24

We tend to overestimate what we can do in a year and we tend to underestimate what we can accomplish in three or five years. So if you take a longer term view, you actually can see through a lot of the noise and challenges that you may encounter in the short-term. Then everything takes time, right? Whether it's starting a family, starting a business, even a job within a company, it takes you a year to get up to speed. The second year you're working really, really hard. And the third year you're getting a bit tired. So it might mean that you have to change job and actually a company or actually might mean changing role within the company. But either way, I think we need this time to be able to learn, perform, and then take a step back and reflect and see, "All right, how do I leverage from what I've learned and apply it to elsewhere so that it fits my greater plan of evolving?" It's all about evolution at the end, whether it's in biology or for human systems.

12:38

What do you mean by that?

12:39

So we only evolve as biological systems as organisms because we sort of expose ourselves to stress. Or stress that is sort of dangerous enough that it actually breaks us and then makes us evolve, but not too hostile that it kills us. Right? Now, when it comes to work, you also have to break your level of knowledge to be able to grow and push yourselves and your boundaries. And only at that point, you'll realize whether this is the right thing for you and how do you compound to the next level? So this is where time is probably one of the best things to be able to deliver to you, the assets that you need to be able to make the right decision.

13:28

How do you know when stress is necessary versus unnecessary?

13:34

So stress is really the external pressure, right? We only evolve by way of being exposed to external pressure. If you take the example of, you and I, and everybody who will listen to this is the result of the influence of their parents and their parental network as they were small, their friends at school and then high school and the university, and all of this has shaped us to become who we are. Although we may not have realized, but this was actually also stress. It influences the factors of influence that actually dictate and shape you. So this is where if there is enough stress, you will actually learn and grow from it, you'll actually enjoy the process of learning. When there is too much of it, it becomes overwhelming. And it's almost like if you put the developer in front of a task and then the language that they are meant to use is something that they don't know.

14:34

And the source code and the features that they have to build are not known to either, the task is so humongous that they might not actually entertain even starting it. But if it's something that they feel quite comfortable about, but there's this level of discomfort, this is the right amount of stress that you need to be able to evolve. And whether for organism or humans, it's actually pretty much the same. You actually realize we all have our different pain thresholds. We'll all, at some point in time, we have our internal parameter to say, "All right, this is too much or enough."

15:08

How does that compare to the startup mantra that you should pick a big problem or like a Jordan pizza where it's like pick the largest responsibility you can possibly handle and put it on your back? How do you take these huge, huge goals that we set for ourselves, but still make sure that we're in this kind of state of flow, this Goldilocks environment.

15:30

I think by going back to first principles, I suppose. Breaking it down to something achievable and understanding the compounded effects of what you put into this world will actually materialize in some shape of form. Going back to Elon Musk, he did not necessarily know how to build a rocket ship, but actually deconstructed what a rocket ship is and started bit by bit. And similar to a source code, you would actually build it block by block. You wouldn't actually realize that this is the entire thing I need to build. So going back to first principle's quite helpful, and this also works for biological systems. So we are an organism. We are made of what we call organ systems, which are made of organs, which are made of tissues, which are made of cells, which are made of atoms. So if you go back to the core, it's like these small things that have come together to build this organism.

16:27

So similarly, I think in work, it's about going back to what you can actually achieve yourself. And I do understand, and I do agree totally with you, Ben, that we need to go for the highest possible outcome because the success rate of a startup is 0.01%. So you might as well go for the highest possible outcome. If you are about to spend your energy in life building something, but then you compound over days and months.

16:56

I'm loving this conversation. What structures in nature also appear in the pursuit of our best work? I'm going to try and throw you some of the abstract questions.

17:07

It's a tough one. The element of collaboration and communication. If you think about how within an organism and outside an organism, things interact, and there are signals that are always sent. So currently, your body's producing a [inaudible 00:17:28] of hormones and you have these binding receptors that those hormones sort of bind to, to be able to send these specific signal to particular parts of your body and cells. Similarly, in the world of building a business or just like building something as part of a team, there are signals you need to be receptive of to be able to do your work properly. And that feedback, whether what we call biological feedback or feedback within an organization are exactly the same. And without that feedback, there is no such thing as improvement or progress.

18:07

Are there others that you can think of?

18:09

That having a singular vision is very important. In your body, your brain dictates to the rest of the organism how it should function. And for a company or for a team or for an individual, the single most important task you're working on will define all of the race.

18:29

Wow. Yeah. And how would that compare against a decentralized way of working? Because in so many modern companies, we want to strip out that decision making, not have a single point of failure and have multiple brains attached to multiple limbs.

18:49

So we've implemented something that you're probably very familiar with, which is the system of OKRs, objectives and key results. So that has allowed us to really align the team. So we all work towards one particular goal and we have a set of key results that we all work towards. That has helped us really make sure that even as we transition to a fully decentralized team, we're able to all work towards the same direction.

19:18

Love it. Before I move on, are there any other structures in nature that you think appear in the pursuit of our best work?

19:26

Yeah, I think one is around adaptation. So a system might adapt itself by just changing its physiology and shape in nature, based on the biological feedback. And for organization is about remaining nimble enough that you can make the right choices as the market evolves. Two years ago, we had this pandemic that hit the world and no one really knew how to handle it at the very start. But I think it was very rewarding and beautiful to see how humans have adapted to it and coming together and helping each other as well as adapt to new ways of working. I think it's accelerated a lot of things and we adapted to our environment. And I don't think we're going back, like this new way of working decentralized, et cetera has actually worked. So why would we go back to a more arcade one? So we've actually now blended the best of both.

20:25

And similarly to our physiology, adapting to our environment, we've actually adapted to this new way of working, but this is what sets the new bar, new standard. These type of interactions are more productive and more common than we would think of.

20:41

What have you done to better understand your own working motivations?

20:46

A lot of painful soul searching. I think it's a combination of reflecting on what I'm good at and what I can bring to this world. And spending probably a lot of time understanding what the society need. Like what are the challenges that society has that needs solving?

21:13

How do you know when your motivation is driven by your ego, in that circumstance versus something that you truly feel is right by you?

21:27

So this is where I always ask myself one question and for anyone in the team before they joined is, "If time and money were not a problem, what would you do every day?" And a lot of the things that we do are actually for one or the other money, recognition in terms of the price that you might get or the fame that might it bring et cetera. So if you remove all of that and time, what are the things that you really enjoy doing? And obviously, not everything in life is about doing the things that you enjoy doing. There are menial stuff as well, but in the greater scheme of things, if you really are enjoying what you're doing, it becomes easier.

22:14

Now, ego always comes in the way. I think you just have to cut the noise of the ego as well. And it's very helpful when you have a mission and a vision for yourself and the team that you have around you to cut the ego, because you always bring back the question to, is this helping the mission? If you have a key target, let's say, I think our goal as a company is to help a million patients. So whatever we do, we always ask ourselves, is it bringing us closer to that number? Is that what we are serving? Or is it serving some other purpose that doesn't actually help the greater cause?

22:59

How have your own motivations changed over time?

23:03

So I think, I suppose as you age, you consolidate more of your values and then you're less influenced by external factors of societal validation, et cetera. And that's only through pain. We all have our pain threshold and I suppose I reached mine back in my twenties. And I think once you remove the element of societal validation and the pressure that it brings, you can actually fully apply yourself to something. So that's the first part. And then the second part is probably around, digging deeper into what are the things that really motivate you interestingly? So that's going back to your Limbic brain. What are the values that you have? For some people, their value might be about helping in truly altruistic way for a particular cause, whether that's around food, et cetera. For some others it's about challenging themselves constantly regardless of the nature of the task. It's really about finding what are your true motivations and finding a platform where you can actually fully exploit those.

24:15

When did you reach your own pain threshold? What happened?

24:18

So it was back in my private equity days. I think I got to a stage where I couldn't necessarily understand why I was doing what I was doing, except for the monetary aspect of it. And as much as I loved analyzing new industries and allocating capital, I couldn't see myself being really happy doing it. So I think it just brought me to a stage closer to advising fully my own identity and why I came to this world for it.

24:56

What did it feel like in that moment? Because it must have been something that crept up on you slowly. That didn't necessarily happen in a fleeting moment, but something that... When was the moment where you decided actually all of the stuff is accumulated to the point where I can now define this as how I feel?

25:20

I don't know if it's actually gradual. It's a great question. It's probably the accumulation, but also one day you wake up and you're like, "I've had enough." And there are many days where you wake up and you're not very happy but just carry on with your day. But one day it's like, "All right, it's enough."

25:44

Is that your Limbic brain talking now or...?

25:46

Yeah, your Limbic brain at that point says, "Is this really who I am?" I'm living in constant conflict. The external world is telling me who I should be and now this internal me, the real me, actually your soul telling you, this is what you should be doing and aspiring to be. And at some point in time, unless you suppress your soul, which you cannot do, you make a contract with yourself to live miserably for the rest of your life or actually decide to change.

26:19

Where does your soul fit into the equation between your analytical brain, your Limbic brain and your soul?

26:30

It's probably with the facilitator. It's the one that is actually seeing everything very clearly and allocating the energy rightfully where it sees that something isn't going right. Because it's all part of the same system, it's just that we have put them into these different boxes. And it doesn't help that your Limbic brain is in charge of decision making, but not of language, but your analytical mind is in charge of language, but not of decision making. So when I ask someone or if you ask yourself as well, why did you take a particular decision? Deeply you'll know why, but you will be unable to communicate to the world because it's a different part of your brain that is actually telling the world why it make a decision. So what happens is that it's just listing facts like X, Y, and Z. So if I ask someone, why did they choose a particular phone versus an Apple phone?

27:33

They might tell me, "Oh, the Apple has all of these features." To which you can answer, "Actually the other phone as well." But it's your Limbic brain trying to tell the world with its own way of communicating, this is why I took a decision. Deep down it's just like, I just knew it was the right thing to do. So in this particular case, to answer your question, it is probably the thing that you need to sort of cherish more and sort of nurture as it will help you navigate all the situations you're going through. The other two are just tools essentially. Your analytical mind is your most powerful thing. It's your intellect. It knows everything that is going into this world. It's your super computer. We have like a trillion brain cells that are working nonstop on our behalf. So we might as well just use that fully.

28:28

How do you learn to listen to your soul more acutely, more clearly?

28:36

You need to pause. You need to fully pause. There is so much input and knowledge and data from everywhere from social media to newspaper, to Slack. I think you just need to cut the noise at some point and just sit down with yourself, no distraction and just listen. Because deep down there is the answer. Obviously, you need external data to be able to make a decision, but at some point more data isn't going to help you. They made this experiment with what they call experts whereby, a group of expert was given 20% of the data that another group was given. And both groups were required to judge the efficacy of a particular solution. They both came to the same conclusion however, the group that was given less data came to that conclusion faster than the second group. Sometimes when you have too much information, you actually can't get your head around it. It's what we call paralysis by analysis or analysis by paralysis.

29:52

So this is where it's quite useful to just cut the noise and just take time for yourself. Holidays help but you need to do that on a daily basis. For every hour of work, you probably need to take 10 minutes to reflect.

30:08

Strikes me that there are kind of two things that are stopping us reaching this inner truth. There's the language barrier where we struggle to find the words to express how our Limbic brain is trying to communicate. And there's the information overload that we're receiving from the outside, where if only we could pause to hear what our calling actually was. And it's mad to think about how many opportunities may be trapped because we're not taking the time to either formulate the words or pause somehow.

30:52

It is. It's quite interesting and scary as well.

30:56

Where did Harper come from for you?

30:58

It was a very simple observation of the entire medical field. And if you look at every field in medicine, there is an early detection tool to be able to identify very early on a particular disease. This is very true Ben for oncology, but it's also true for what we call lifetime related diseases, such as diabetes, whereby a patient would go through a blood test and that blood test might tell them that they are prediabetic. That level of awareness is what a patient needs to be able to start their journey towards better health. Now, when it comes to mental health, there is no such thing as an early detection tool to be able to prevent the onset of precondition such as burnout and chronic stress, which then lead on to clinical conditions such as clinical anxiety and clinical depression. So although you have a lot of solutions from meditation to therapy, unless people have that level of awareness, they will not make the change.

32:09

So this is what the premise to starting Harper. And then we took a very personalized view to mental health. So we leverage precision medicine and technology to be able to address the unmet mental health needs of patients. And how we do that is really by taking a personalized view of everything from the diagnostic to the delivery of care. So that is really leveraging person's specific biomarkers, to be able to tell them, "All right, these are the things that are relating to you, and this is what you should be doing."

32:47

It's interesting that you said that what you do is you apply personalization from the diagnostic to the delivery, perhaps in part, because we're all so very different. What challenges have you come up against when it comes to us being so very different from one another and being able to detect those early warning signs?

33:16

So I suppose the foundational blocks are pretty much the same for everyone in terms of the signs of sort of the states of mental health of a particular individual. Now, what really varies is the data and the baseline that every single person has. Just taking an example, your heart rate variability or your resting heart rate might be very different to mine. While yours might be lower than mine, it doesn't necessarily mean that I am less healthy than you are, unless the numbers are quite off. And in which case actually, it is a sign that things are to be taken care of. So the base lining is really what was actually pretty difficult to us.

34:07

Now, how do you define the individual's baseline? How do you then peg that to the healthy clinical range for that particular biomarker? And how do you define whether this is above or below the line? So that takes what we call calibration, which took us a few months for every single one of our patients to do. But once you get to that stage, we really have agranular view of that particular patient's state of mental health at any point in time, both current and future.

34:38

There's such a parallel between the baseline that you are trying to find and the baseline that we all approach work from. It's almost as if your challenge there is trying to find the baseline for someone. It's almost the same with our working life. You have someone like Elon whose baseline is up here, and then you've got [Joe Blocks 00:35:14] whose baseline is down here and there's no wrong or right type of work per se. But for either of those individuals with different baselines, it's so very different somehow. How do you go about assessing your baseline at work?

35:33

That's a great question. I think the more data points you have, or at least the minimum viable sets of data points it is necessary, and this will derive from a number of areas. One is, assuming that you are in a position where the market dictates your performance, then you can actually know whether or not what you're doing is contributing to that. That's probably the easiest way to look at it. And then for a developer, it might be around some of the more granular data points such as the features that they might be able to ship in the time. Now that's very difficult because it creates this very unhealthy environment where you are telling someone that they're becoming part of this assembly line and they have to do something within X number of minutes or hours. And then everything is productized in a way.

36:36

So that's one way of looking at it at the other end. But I think the feedback from your team is also very important. Like, what's the velocity? That's probably the most important thing. And how do you assess your progress and whether it's helping the bigger cause of, whether it's getting to product market fit or shipping a new product, or just turning around a solution because there is an internal, external need?

37:05

When you are going through the challenging parts of your work day-to-day, there must be times where you are working on projects that feel almost insurmountable. Where do you source your own courage from?

37:21

It's a tough question.

37:25

Sorry.

37:26

It's a great question. I think the... At least for me, for the entrepreneur is the level of accountability that I have because of the fact that I have investors, employees and customers keeps me going.

37:44

Is that pressure or courage?

37:45

It's both. I think it just feeds into... I think for me it's courage. It gives me the strength to be able to go. I just love it. I don't want to let people down. I think that's one of the things I've realized over time is that if I were just working for myself and... By the way, you never work only for yourself. There is always someone you work for. But this level of accountability is what I needed. I'm actually more accountable, more responsible today because I have investors of very high caliber, employees of extremely high caliber and intellect and clients and patients that I'm able to do what I do. If I was a freelancer, for instance, just sort of working on projects from time to time, I don't think this level of scrutiny that I apply to myself would be the same. So for me, courage and pressure are one of the same.

38:47

And in some ways it sounds like it's those, whether it's pressure or courage that comes to you because you have skin in the game. And by having skin in the game, the pressure and the accountability and the courage falls to you. If you don't have skin in the game, where do you source that courage from, do you think?

39:13

So I'll take the example of my team. Some of them have skin in the game, the more recent hires don't yet, but they're all very driven by the mission. I think the mission really gives them courage. They really are fully on board with what we are doing, what we're trying to achieve. And they just love it. They really love it. That pushes them to work really hard and come up with initiatives as if they were owner of the company as well.

39:46

If you take, for instance, the guys at cord, because I've interacted a lot with your team as we were hiring and most of our team actually came from sourcing through the platform. The team is so reactive and so willing to help and it's because they're actually enjoying the fact that they are able to help people find meaningful work. And you can see it in the way they interact with me, they interacted with the candidates. It starts really with the sourcing side of things, the way you personalize your messages to the people, for them to come on the platform is really unmatched. And then, I think people see through all of this and they can see that it's a mission driven team that you have.

40:40

If you don't... One of the failures of our modern working life is that there are so many people who struggle to find that meaning, who struggle to find that courage. One of the core things I think a lot of people struggle with is being able to embrace feedback in the way that perhaps you've been able to. Do you think there's a skill to taking on feedback as you go through your career? And if so, what can you do to develop it?

41:23

Having a very strict framework to be able to capture that feedback is very important. And I think we don't necessarily have it as humans, we tend to just aggregate bits of feedback and usually the feedback that is most useful to us or that shades us in a positive light. Other than that, I think it's like the data capture is very, very important. I don't do it enough by the way. I think whether through a journal or having a more systemized way of capturing that feedback on a weekly, monthly basis is very important. And what do you learn from that? That's one piece. And I suppose the other one is about just testing whatever is happening, validating it. Because we tend to validate so much about product features, we don't tend to validate our own behaviors. And it's a bit unfortunate because our behaviors are actually what lead to better product features and shipping on time and all of the rest.

42:30

Such a challenge to take something that is, first of all, it's a not straightforward data collection problem. So how do you take that data and take it in? But then also how do you make sure that it can move from your analytical brain to your Limbic brain and then from your Limbic brain seeping into your soul so you can make these more accurate decisions? It's almost a data collection problem.

42:59

Yeah.

43:01

A human problem. And then an existential problem.

43:05

Yeah. This is why, if you look at sports, I think humans, we're fascinated by sports because the feedback system is very quick. It's binary. You either win or lose. And then you do that constantly over time. Now, I think if we're able to define what is a small win or a small loss every day, then you're able to actually define over a period of time, is this a winning streak or not? So perhaps about really putting one challenge a day to yourself and the feedback is binary, so this is a yes or no. And over a period of time, you can realize whether it's actually working or not, whatever you've put in place. It works in sports. It works in science as well because you're doing experiments. And for humans, because we don't have the Petri dish to be able to say, "All right, there's a positive or a negative outcome." We don't tend to learn from it. But maybe that one thing a day is perhaps what you need.

44:15

Mithi, I think you're incredible.

44:18

You too.